Yataghan for discussion.

[kronckew]

Just acquired this straight yataghan, sold at auction as a:


Good antique Turkish or Ottoman, Yataghan sword in hard scabbard, overall length approximately 29". The blade has triple impressed marking. Metals seem to be silver and brass. Lots of silver pins on the grip. The grip hasn't any ears!


Needs a good cleaning. The white goop I'm hoping is metal polish residue. The brass 'tonku' came out nice, tho. Will post better pics when it arrives.



My Research points to Istanbul 1850-1890, the marks being a guild mark or the maker's personal mark.

Any ideas on its age and area of origin welcome.



Thanks all...

[TVV]

What a great piece! The blade looks it might be repurposed from an earlier European backsword/broadsword. The straight blade yataghans seem to be more common in the Western Balkans.

[serdar]

Congrats on aquiring that nice pala.
My main focus in collecting are yataghan swords, especialy from balkan region, with emphasis on Dalmatian, Boka kotorska, Montenegro and Bosnia und Herzegovina region.

What you got there is a Pala big knife like it is called in this area, or Pala handžar.
Mainly and usualy pala is made from silver, and not like yours from black horn?(boka kotorska was a center of very good goldsmiths who made excuisit works in silver) and by that yours is more interesting, like for the yatagan origin, origin of first pala is unknown, but only examples i encountered and inherited from my ancestors are from on my language Primorje or Boka kotorska, and some in Albanian coast made, so it is a big chance pala originated there like their response on yatagans.

Some palas do have ottoman stamps some not, that is normal blade trade in boka at that time.

In Dubrovnik region and Dalmatia they made straight yatagans but with ears, but they never made pala type.

This kind, a Pala kind were made only in Boka kotorska and very rarely in Albania.

Your blade looks like blades from 15/16 century italian blades with triple marca de mosca, and it seems to me it had a fulers long ago that are filed, or it is patina that tricks me into thinking that.

All in all very nice and valuable piece you got ther.
Yatagans with old reused blades are very rare, and palas are even rarer.

About origin i would say maybe Bosnian? Or Albanian, i never encountered this type from turkey or other regions that were under ottomans, and handle pined construction and parazvana or blade colar is similar to one bosnian yataghan i had before, allso there were lot of italian blades in this region.

About age, palas were usualy made in the secon half of 18 century.

Il post few pictures, first of dalmatian yatagan, then of two palas from boka kotorska region, and two pictures from old books one from Croatia second from Bosnia.

[serdar]

Marks are not istanbul, those marks i encountered on few swords i got and they are proto schiavonesca types. 15/16 century, one is 14 century they got identical marks.

And age i would say dnd of 18 begining of 19 century.
But more i look at it more i would say it is made in Bosnia in Hercegovina region behind Risno, craftmanship is very very similar to one yatagan i encountered from that region.

Very nice! 😃👍🏻

[serdar]

About metal on the flag of the blade is bras, and on joint and around blade hašrma i think it is kositar or tin pewter in english some mix it is very comon on yatagans made in hercegovina region, and then it is silvered coated with thin silver layer.
I think it is chance 90% that it is tin then silvered, when it is full silver then parazvana is allso silver and it is made in diferent way.
But not 100% by photos.
Pins in the handle could also be tin.
On lots of yatagans those parts are cracked thin becomes very britle with time.
On yours it is in very good shape, if it is tin.
But it isnt important which metal it is, it is very nice and valuable piece.

[serdar]

This example with dark horn ears is from dalmatian back lands, it has a tin pewter alloy parazvana and hašrma on which is layered thin a very thin piece of silver sheet, it is not silvered but very thin silver sheet.
And a caracteristic of dalmatian and boka kotorska yatagans is a very short and straight parazvana piece on the flag of the blade.

[gp]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Just acquired this straight yataghan, sold at auction as a:


Good antique Turkish or Ottoman, Yataghan sword in hard scabbard, overall length approximately 29". The blade has triple impressed marking. Metals seem to be silver and brass. Lots of silver pins on the grip. The grip hasn't any ears!


Needs a good cleaning. The white goop I'm hoping is metal polish residue. The brass 'tonku' came out nice, tho. Will post better pics when it arrives.



My Research points to Istanbul 1850-1890, the marks being a guild mark or the maker's personal mark.

Any ideas on its age and area of origin welcome.



Thanks all...

I can't say much about the origin at this moment, except that I have seen most "straight" blade ones made in the Bay of Kotor but also being re-used at their time ( 1800-1900).
The scabbard's end on first sight doesn't look like Montenegrin....but I could be mistaken by the only picture;
if possible could you post a closer one of its end..? as I am most curious to learn more

Looking very much forward seeing it cleaned but in general I'ld say
"lovely jubbly"

a very nice good looking one and specially the handle's decoration is more than nice ! My compliments an excellent catch !!!

[serdar]

Originally Posted by gp

The scabbard's end on first sight doesn't look like Montenegrin.

There is no Montenegrin type of scabards end, in montenegreo they used what ever they bought or in most cases captured from turks.

But there is a Kotor type end and it is in silver a rounded ball at the end always.

His i think has a bud end but it isnt clear from photos.

Il post s picture of Bokeljski jatagan or boka kotorska yatagan and there above it is seen a part of the scabbard with ball end that is Boka kotorska type.

[gp]

Originally Posted by serdar

There is no Montenegrin type of scabards end, in montenegreo they used what ever they bought or in most cases captured from turks.

But there is a Kotor type end and it is in silver a rounded ball at the end always.

His i think has a bud end but it isnt clear from photos.

Il post s picture of Bokeljski jatagan or boka kotorska yatagan and there above it is seen a part of the scabbard with ball end that is Boka kotorska type.

For convenience sake, my friend... I referred to Montenegro as there is where the Bay of Kotor ( Boka Kotorska) can be found today.
This is eassier for most folks
you don't refer to Belgrade in the Ottoman times as Pashaluk or Sanjak of Smederovo...

One can't expect each forum member to have that detailed knowledge.

My comment was based upon the lack of bud on the foto and request for a more detail as otherwise it would be an assumption, and assumptions are the mother of all.... The bud could also have been broken off, that is another possibility.

Neverhtelss it is and remains a beautiful yataghan that would be a excellent piece in any collection !

[gp]

as comparison the only "straight"yataghan I a have,
although to compare it is incorrect, due to the fact that

- mine has ears...
- and sadly no scabbard.

Total lenght is 60 cm (so actually rather short / small....)
The grip made out some kind of bone, which I would not dare to say

and 2 more pics of a straight one

[gp]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Any ideas on its age and area of origin welcome.



Thanks all...

wanted to send you a PM but couldn't,
Just FYI, root cause :

"kronckew has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by gp

wanted to send you a PM but couldn't,
Just FYI, root cause :

"kronckew has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

Oops. Emptied out now.


Thanks again, y'all, for all the info. Very informative. I'll clean the Pala and post some new photos when it arrives. I paid an unbelieveably LOW price for it. A 19c sheffield hunting knife i was initially interested in, a few lots before it went for an unbelieveably HIGH price, so i was surprised the yat (pala) didn't even have a reserve and only one other bidder before me. Win some, lose some. I won this time