27th August 2016, 07:32 AM | #151 | |
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27th August 2016, 07:17 PM | #152 | |
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These people were mostly from different tribes of the Circassians, and sometimes, even Abazins (who talk a dialect of Aphazian, not Adyghe language). As a result, there are many misunderstandings (I am not mentioning the misspellings or wrong transcriptions, but I can give credit for this, I can never write the true transcription of the Circassian words . About the subject, words given for Sword (Sabre) are all variants of seshkho (сэшхо) = shashka seys-shooâ is directly referring to seshkho, and sesh-wey is the same word in genitive case. The word written as tzéshwey is most probably s-seshkhoe(y), which means "my shashka" The first correspondence for "sabre" above this is a little bit more correct, because "seshkhém" means "the shashka". However, the second word given may explain the tragedy, because the word given as "pee-yoop sho" is not a noun, but a verb that any Circassian can understand: It means "cutting", or, literally, "it cuts" Best |
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27th August 2016, 07:42 PM | #153 | |
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27th August 2016, 09:24 PM | #154 |
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Then, here is a pseudo shashka from me
The hilt is goat's horn. The iron expand of the blade goes until the end of the hilt, nearly have the shape of it. The places of the rivets can give a clue. The "ears" of the hilt are not as usual. The fuller is strange, and one can note the strange curve where the fuller begins. The blade narrows after the fuller, and slightly expands after it, as if there is a kind of "yalman". I have never seen any parallels of this one Someone told me that this was "one of the earliest examples of shashkas", but I did not buy it (if only it was ) Best. Last edited by kamachate; 27th August 2016 at 09:38 PM. |
28th August 2016, 03:40 AM | #155 |
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I think you were right not buying it. Nothing "early"or "archaic", just rudimentary workmanship of a not very talented cutler , made for a very poor customer.
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28th August 2016, 04:48 AM | #156 | |
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kamachate:
Thank you for the lesson in the Circassian language. Much appreciated and very interesting contribution to this discussion. It just goes to show how complicated and ultimately frustrating the "name game" can be for those of us who are outside the culture. Ian Quote:
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28th August 2016, 08:18 AM | #157 | |
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Regards, Andreas |
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28th August 2016, 01:26 PM | #158 |
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Kamachate,
Thank you very much for yout lesson. It is very funny and very sobering. Unquestionably, that's how it went all over the world when curious Westerners compiled books on exotic arms using private translator-mediated conversations with the locals. Hundreds of years later their readers passionately clash in pseudo-academic pseudo- linguistic battles : saif or nimcha? Kard or karud? Tulwar, pulwar, pulouar or just shamshir? We were so happy when the "oldest" name for the Khyber knife was found: Selaawa. Now I am wondering what that old toothless Afghani had in mind:-) |
28th August 2016, 02:22 PM | #159 | |
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Last edited by estcrh; 28th August 2016 at 02:34 PM. |
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29th August 2016, 03:21 AM | #160 |
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Both Caucasian, IMHO.
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29th August 2016, 05:11 PM | #161 | |
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29th August 2016, 05:24 PM | #162 | |
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29th August 2016, 06:57 PM | #163 | |
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Last edited by Ian; 30th August 2016 at 02:48 AM. |
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30th August 2016, 02:50 AM | #164 | |
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Estrch, I believe that Ariel's comments reflect what he laid out earlier in this thread and were summarized in the table in post #71. Ian
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30th August 2016, 04:55 AM | #165 | |
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12th October 2017, 11:03 PM | #166 | |
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12th October 2017, 11:22 PM | #167 | |
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Circassian shashka in my opinion is brilliant weapon, a crowning specimen of special type of swords that emerged and underwent development in Caucasus region. There is a definite genealogical line of these kind of weapons. Shahska does not stand totally apart. |
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13th October 2017, 05:33 AM | #168 |
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Vakhtang,
Glad to finally see you here. This forum definitely needs people of your expertise. |
8th December 2017, 08:37 PM | #169 | |
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9th December 2017, 02:37 PM | #170 |
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Let me and myself get involved in the topic.The word shashka is derived from Kabardino Circassian sa`sh ho which means a long knife.For homeland is considered the Caucasus region.The most extensive studies on the subject conducted by Russian researchers.Most earliest reference to such use blades are excavations of graves from the 13th century in the Caucasus region.It is also interesting to note that such a form of long edged weapon are used at all the neighboring regions of the Caucasus (Including Georgia).During the Caucasian wars,the cossacks have find exclusive advantage of light and convenient blade used by local peoples.Begins phasing using the shashka and kinjals in Cossack troops.The command of the Russian Imperial Army began to deploy this type of weapon in the Cossack regiments.Eventually, thanks to the Russians this weapon becomes extremely popular in the world.
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9th December 2017, 07:33 PM | #171 |
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All true.
Caucasian weapons ( Shashka and kindjal) were initially individually acquired by neighboring Cossacks and later by Russian officers serving in the Caucasus, most actively during the Murid Wars. Then both started to be manufactured in St. Petersburg and various other cities in Russia and Ukraine, using classical Caucasian forms and decorations. Then they were modified to become regulation weapons of the Russian imperial army, having very little in common with the Caucasian originals but preserving their original names. A similar story happened with Caucasian clothes: from occasional individual acquisition to mass fashion statement : even Russian Tsars had their official portraits painted wearing full Caucasian garb, from hats to weapons in minute detail. I know of no other example where military victors so fully adopted external accoutrements of the vanquished. Certainly, people all over the world adopted some details of their neighbours’ weaponry ( “ weapons do not know borders” principle), but such a massive transformation has no precedent in the “vanquished-to-victors” direction. It is as if British high society, royalty included, would have started wearing Indian saris and Zulu loinclothes and the British military officially adopted khandas and katars. My IMHO theory: this peculiar behavior of the Russians might be due to the absense of their own tradition. They got their weapons from Vikings or Mongols ( and later from acquiring Persian, Turkish, Polish or W. European examples, singularly or en masse), and their own clumsy boyar coats and women’s sarafans were banned by Peter I and substituted for W. European garb. A chance to dress like some unknown to the world Caucasians and wield peculiar Caucasian weapons gave them identity they so much yearned for. |
9th December 2017, 08:51 PM | #172 |
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[QUOTE=ariel]All true.
I know of no other example where military victors so fully adopted external accoutrements of the vanquished.[QUOTE] Mughals in India, turks in Iran&Transoxiana, turks in India sultanates in 12-15th Last edited by Mercenary; 9th December 2017 at 09:07 PM. |
9th December 2017, 09:06 PM | #173 | |
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9th December 2017, 09:28 PM | #174 |
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I am talking about a dominant culture and governmental lmperial policies. No offense to any particular people was meant.
If you have a better alternative explanation I would love to hear it and may even agree. |
9th December 2017, 09:30 PM | #175 | |
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[QUOTE=Mercenary]
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10th December 2017, 04:19 AM | #176 | |
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In the case of shashka or any others Caucasian things that was just a fashion the same as some British adopted tulwars. In the case of French and British it was "a cultural intruder and surprisingly borrower of local traditions" too? I am not sure. For a more developed states to borrow some of the native curious items is normal. Last edited by Mercenary; 10th December 2017 at 04:30 AM. |
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10th December 2017, 04:45 AM | #177 | |
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[QUOTE=ariel]
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Turks-afghans in India in 12-15th - jamdhar, elephant, dress, lifestyle of rajas. Turks in Iran - language (!), town lifestyle, ALL PERSIAN CULTURE. In origin shashka was the Caucasian weapon. But who glorified it? That is way all we know "Russian shashka". |
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10th December 2017, 03:32 PM | #178 |
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I am choosing not to participate in a discussion that will be viewed by some as personal confrontation.
There are many other people on this Forum with enough knowledge to address factual errors and inconsistencies. I elect to pass on this occasion. Best wishes. |
10th December 2017, 07:20 PM | #179 | |
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11th December 2017, 05:06 AM | #180 |
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Many answers to your arguments can be found in the recent Elgood's book about Jodhpur weapons.
I got it almost 2 weeks ago, and am reading it slowly and attentively. It is a monumental contribution with exhaustive analysis of historical sources and impeccable argumentation. Good half of the first volume consists of academic chapters of the highest caliber and the analysis of individual objects is largely unexpected . I learned a lot. Get it and read slowly and carefully. This is not your standard regurgitation of Egerton, Stone or Rawson. Every page opens new and original vistas. One needs to digest virtually every sentence. You too will learn more about Indian history and militaria than you could even imagine. Enjoy! |
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