Knife/dagger identification problem

[OsobistGB]

Originally Posted by Ian

Osobist,

Your last item is very interesting. I'm not experienced at all in the subtleties of edged weapons from the Balkans and neighboring areas. However, I do like cross-cultural pieces and this particular item seems to be full of multicultural influences. The very nice sheath looks Greek to me, the hilt from Sarajevo or thereabouts, and the much sharpened blade from somewhere in the Mediterranean region. I don't know whether the sheath has always been with the knife but the hilt and blade seem to have had a long term relationship.

What are your thoughts on your knife?

This part of the Ottoman Empire is extremely diverse in its ethnic composition.Craftsmen of various nationalities work in the main arms manufacturing centers
and acquired experience in the development of various types of items satisfying the current market needs. My humble opinion about this particular knife is that it was made in the Bay of Kotor/Boka kotorska/Bocche di Cattaro.I'm guessing its current form was re-struck after the hilt was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest. I'm guessing its current appearance was changed after the handle was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest by a craftsman working in the Bosnian style.This is how it should look without repair

[Ian]

Thanks Osobist for the detailed response.

[gp]

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

My humble opinion about this particular knife is that it was made in the Bay of Kotor/Boka kotorska/Bocche di Cattaro.I'm guessing its current form was re-struck after the hilt was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest. I'm guessing its current appearance was changed after the handle was repaired in a workshop somewhere in the northwest by a craftsman working in the Bosnian style.This is how it should look without repair

one can exaggerate in modesty ( "humble opnion") after sharp remarks first, but lets turn to the subject as I disagree and think it to be rather wishful thinking and like the rolling Stones sang: it's only your imagination running away with you. No offence intended at all, but please allow me to explain:

first the type op Montenegrin dagger you have shown:

- dates back to the late 18th century , something between 1780 - 1840
- is around the time the Boka / bay was Italian or Southern Dalmatian Habsburg; so no Ottoman Empire...
- no real wanderings took place of weapen or bladesmiths as they either were not allowed to or lacked the finances nor the need. Specially in the Boka.

Still weapons do wander and yes, marriages take place indeed, but (speaking from experience / being a visitor to the Boka and Montenegro since the 1980ies) no selfrespecting Montenegrin (then and now) in his right mind would allow this piece of "sacrilage" or cultural barbarism to happen to match the very nice scabbard with such a beautiful dagger into the product you have shown as a test to me....☻☻☻

And even if, if the dagger would have ended up in Ottoman territory; i.e. BiH or Sanzak...again these folks were not stupid to do something silly like that: such a piece of beauty would have found its way to some one with the means to have it restored to either its orginal beauty or to a similar high level Ottoman piece but not a simple bichaq type hilt like you correctly stated I have quite a few...
Also looking at the blade: no remnants / signs of a good bolster, which should have been there...

To make it more confussing: in the Ottoman Empire there were a couple of atypical Ottoman ( non curved but straight) blades made as you can see in some examples I took from publications of the Museum of Banja Luka, a paper of a Romanian historical scolar with Dr. title and a Russian publication I was made aware of by a respected forum member . All between 2006 and 2014.

Yes I do agree it is difficult to find an origin but looking at the data, I think a marriage between a scabbard and something someone made but the latter not connected to the Montenegrin one I think...

Than again..I could be wrong...

[gp]

the other pics showing Ottoman pieces

[gp]

additional: I found at a Croatian website an example of how the remnants of a bolster should look like....but yes...hold your horses...☺☺☺
they could have been "cleaned" away....

[OsobistGB]

And where have I mentioned that Boka was in the Ottoman Empire
It seems to me that we got lost in the translationWith that, my participation in the topic is over
As my beloved neighbor says...Razgovor je počeo da se okreće ka merenju kuraca

[gp]

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

And where have I mentioned that Boka was in the Ottoman Empire
It seems to me that we got lost in the translationWith that, my participation in the topic is over
As my beloved neighbor says...Razgovor je počeo da se okreće ka merenju kuraca

My mistake if I made the Ottoman connection of this type of knives not clear ...my apologies for this mishap. Although Kotor just very briefly was Ottoman but nothing worthwhile to mention compared to the other Balkan regions...but "workshop somewhere in the northwest" would imply Southern Dalmatia ( Ulcinj or so) next to Hercegevina which was under Ottoman banner...

You also have to excuse me as I have no knowledge on Macedonian sayings.... but lets leave it with Immanuel Kant who said "Drei Dinge helfen, die Mühseligkeiten des Lebens zu tragen: Die Hoffnung, der Schlaf und das Lachen "

Nevertheless I liked the above example dagger you showed as an answer to Ian very much! It produced some nice daggers and input. Would have like to know where it can be seen, if not owned by a collector.

[gp]

some more bichaqs to compare:

2 pictures from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art
1 of a Montengrin gent from 1912 displayung his armor

one film on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpBGyoMCkcY

an older contribution to the forum:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12722

and some pics of a Montenegrin bichaq

the more one sees and also checks the Balkan literature, it clearly looks like the piece from our well respected Bulgarian forum member, sadly the scabbard does not belong to the bichaq and the combination of 2 different items was sold as one set.
This is not oncommon as of my 38 bichaqs and several kamas, this also took place with a few and with items on sale still does if one carefully examines these pieces. Never that type of hilt is matched with that scabbard. That hilt grip is always found on the wooden with cupper covered scabbard