Wootz kindjal - have you ever seen?

ALEX · 24th March 2010, 07:37 PM

Buendia,
This is a brilliant question (and of course a fantastic poem). Thank you for bringing it to the Forum.
As well known, bulat was a widely used term in Russia to identify high quality steel. First, I'd think this term would be commonly referred to just that - good quality, very strong and well forged steel, and not necessarily Damascus. Persian wootz blades were popular and highly regarded, and many Kindjals employed them with their locally made fittings. Not many Caucasian smiths were forging wootz, so I believe term bulat was used for both locally produced quality non-wootz blades as well as wootz trade blades (sort of to equal them in quality terms). I think Lermontov used "bulat" with no specific reference to "wootz" or Damascus (my personal opinion of course).

ariel · 24th March 2010, 09:59 PM

Well, ain't no that simple...
The same Lermontov, in one of the variants of his poem " The Poet" (1838), writes about bulat kindjal ".. creation of old Geurk". Also, in his diary, he mentioned bringing a kindjal to Geurk, who confirmed the "authorship". Thus, they must have been acquainted.
Geurk Elizarov ( Elizarashvili) did work with real wootz and made several known bulat ( wootz) blades. He was known to possess the secret of making wootz, and his son Kahraman was ordered to teach the secret to several Russian masters.
Most likely, both father and son used Indian wootz ingots for their best blades. In this, they did not differ from the most famous Iranian masters who also bought wootz ingots from the same source.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th March 2010, 10:48 PM

Very interesting Ariel.
Maybe others have comments to this as well, although I doubt it - but it could be interesting.

buendia · 26th March 2010, 01:43 AM

Thank you for this wonderful information.
I found out that in 1837 a ship with British weopons for Circassian rebels was intercepted by Russian fleet.
Maybe some some tool made of shear steel was reforged into kindjal?
Somewhere here I saw photos of a chisel made of Sheffield shear steel compared to some Sham type of wootz, and there was some reference to Itame I think...

IMO it`s almost impossible to differentiate them for a non-specialist.
Maybe Lermontov considered the English shear steel as a Sham pattern?
007 scenario - I know, but maybe?

ariel · 26th March 2010, 12:00 PM

According to Ann Feuerbach, she found 2 wootz blades dating back to ~8th century in the North Caucasus. No need to invoke British shear steel.

Also, "caucasians" had contacts with India and Persia well before Brits had a navy and Russia was an empire :-)

chregu · 26th March 2010, 10:56 PM

My example of Wootzklinge.
These Kindjal I found a few years ago at a secondhand shop.
Greeting chregu

TVV · 27th March 2010, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

My example of Wootzklinge.
These Kindjal I found a few years ago at a secondhand shop.
Greeting chregu

Chregu,

I have a very similar kindjal to yours, with the same pattern on the blade. At first glance, it does resemble wootz, but I do not think it is. In my opinion, these are fine pattern welded blades.

I am also attaching pictures of the blade of another kindjal, which could be sham wootz, or sheer steel, not sure.

Regards,
Teodor

26th March 2010, 10:56 PM	#6
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	My example of Wootzklinge. These Kindjal I found a few years ago at a secondhand shop. Greeting chregu Attached Images

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24th March 2010, 07:37 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Buendia, This is a brilliant question (and of course a fantastic poem). Thank you for bringing it to the Forum. As well known, bulat was a widely used term in Russia to identify high quality steel. First, I'd think this term would be commonly referred to just that - good quality, very strong and well forged steel, and not necessarily Damascus. Persian wootz blades were popular and highly regarded, and many Kindjals employed them with their locally made fittings. Not many Caucasian smiths were forging wootz, so I believe term bulat was used for both locally produced quality non-wootz blades as well as wootz trade blades (sort of to equal them in quality terms). I think Lermontov used "bulat" with no specific reference to "wootz" or Damascus (my personal opinion of course).

24th March 2010, 09:59 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, ain't no that simple... The same Lermontov, in one of the variants of his poem " The Poet" (1838), writes about bulat kindjal ".. creation of old Geurk". Also, in his diary, he mentioned bringing a kindjal to Geurk, who confirmed the "authorship". Thus, they must have been acquainted. Geurk Elizarov ( Elizarashvili) did work with real wootz and made several known bulat ( wootz) blades. He was known to possess the secret of making wootz, and his son Kahraman was ordered to teach the secret to several Russian masters. Most likely, both father and son used Indian wootz ingots for their best blades. In this, they did not differ from the most famous Iranian masters who also bought wootz ingots from the same source.

24th March 2010, 10:48 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very interesting Ariel. Maybe others have comments to this as well, although I doubt it - but it could be interesting.

26th March 2010, 01:43 AM	#4
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	Thank you for this wonderful information. I found out that in 1837 a ship with British weopons for Circassian rebels was intercepted by Russian fleet. Maybe some some tool made of shear steel was reforged into kindjal? Somewhere here I saw photos of a chisel made of Sheffield shear steel compared to some Sham type of wootz, and there was some reference to Itame I think... IMO it`s almost impossible to differentiate them for a non-specialist. Maybe Lermontov considered the English shear steel as a Sham pattern? 007 scenario - I know, but maybe?

26th March 2010, 12:00 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	According to Ann Feuerbach, she found 2 wootz blades dating back to ~8th century in the North Caucasus. No need to invoke British shear steel. Also, "caucasians" had contacts with India and Persia well before Brits had a navy and Russia was an empire :-)