WHICH SUNDANG?

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2010, 12:16 PM

No Penangsang, you don't bore me.

I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions.

Thank you for expanding your comments.

Thanks Pak Ganja.

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.

A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

ganjawulung · 1st April 2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

It seems that this whatever "sundang" was fit with (probably) a key, not really like a needle-sized pin. A flat key at one side of the square hole. (picture below)...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 1st April 2010, 11:38 PM

Thank you Pak Ganja.

I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify.

Please accept my apologies.

ganjawulung · 2nd April 2010, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify.
Please accept my apologies.

Of course no problem at all, Alan. The half round pin-hole near the flat key, do you think it was intentionally made for technical reason?

Thank you in advance, Alan...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 01:15 AM

That half-round cut is where you would expect to find a keyway.

There are a number of possible explanations for it being there, but we cannot really say with any certainty why it is there.

If the blade is truly old and genuine, something that from the photos I am inclined to doubt, the original fit of ganja to pesi may have been done with keyway and key (pin), on the other hand, if it is not old and genuine, perhaps the maker may have tried to fit with a key, but found he had made the ganja hole insufficiently neat to allow a key fitting, so he resorted to using a slip, or a wedge of metal, as we can see.

ganjawulung · 2nd April 2010, 03:03 AM

Thanks, for the explanation Alan,
It is still difficult to convince me that this blade is not old. The light material I feel in my hand is one thing, and the "wasuhan" (quenching) technique of the upper blade is another thing. And I am still quite sure too, that this not "maduran sundang". Except, if one trace the origin of this blade from the warangka, and not from the blade...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 04:57 AM

Pak Ganja, you have it in your hand.

Without doubt other experienced people would have seen the actual blade and given an opinion.

All we can see here is an image on a computer screen.

Based on that image I have the impression that this blade is recent, but it is more than probable that were I to hold it in my hand I would reverse that opinion.

In many cases the use for photos displayed on computer screens is worse than useless for any meaningful comment on a keris.The best we can hope for when we comment based on computer images is an impression created by that image, and the image is no substitute for the real thing.

1st April 2010, 11:38 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Pak Ganja. I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify. Please accept my apologies. Attached Images

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23rd March 2010, 12:16 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	No Penangsang, you don't bore me. I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions. Thank you for expanding your comments. Thanks Pak Ganja. It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used. It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi. If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint. Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating. A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

2nd April 2010, 01:15 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	That half-round cut is where you would expect to find a keyway. There are a number of possible explanations for it being there, but we cannot really say with any certainty why it is there. If the blade is truly old and genuine, something that from the photos I am inclined to doubt, the original fit of ganja to pesi may have been done with keyway and key (pin), on the other hand, if it is not old and genuine, perhaps the maker may have tried to fit with a key, but found he had made the ganja hole insufficiently neat to allow a key fitting, so he resorted to using a slip, or a wedge of metal, as we can see.

2nd April 2010, 03:03 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks, for the explanation Alan, It is still difficult to convince me that this blade is not old. The light material I feel in my hand is one thing, and the "wasuhan" (quenching) technique of the upper blade is another thing. And I am still quite sure too, that this not "maduran sundang". Except, if one trace the origin of this blade from the warangka, and not from the blade... GANJAWULUNG

2nd April 2010, 04:57 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Pak Ganja, you have it in your hand. Without doubt other experienced people would have seen the actual blade and given an opinion. All we can see here is an image on a computer screen. Based on that image I have the impression that this blade is recent, but it is more than probable that were I to hold it in my hand I would reverse that opinion. In many cases the use for photos displayed on computer screens is worse than useless for any meaningful comment on a keris.The best we can hope for when we comment based on computer images is an impression created by that image, and the image is no substitute for the real thing.