Malay (?) keris from Ebay

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 12:10 PM

Dear PenangsangII,

may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall?

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Regards

David · 17th March 2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Well the blade was collected by someone i know personally in the USA about 40 years ago and i don't think it was new then. I had thought it was probably 20th century, but pre WW2. I also don't know the specifics of keris production on the Peninsula. Perhaps Dave H., Kai Wee or Shahrial know more about that.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:50 PM

G'day Alan,

All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person.

I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought).

I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:52 PM

Alan,

I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better).

Thanks.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:01 PM

Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age.

I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up.

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 02:03 PM

BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat.

Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:10 PM

Malay sundangs are pretty rare as a category (about as rare as cotengs, I reckon). I think I have probably only seen around a dozen or so. I think more than half are in sandang walikat sheaths.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:18 PM

Wow, we have gathered 8 examples of Malay sundangs in 1 thread! That's quite a feat!

A. G. Maisey · 17th March 2010, 11:20 PM

Thanks Rasdan and Kai Wee.

Kai Wee, to answer your question on whether I can supply a photo of a sundang that is in sandang walikat (SW) scabbard without the horn strip.

No, I cannot, as I do not own one. I know of several in somebody else's collection, but this gentleman has always refused permission to photograph anything in his collection --- I hate to think what the response might be if I asked for permission to publish a photo on the internet.

However, there is a photo of a sundang together with its SW scabbard in Gardner.This scabbard appears not to have the horn strip.

But further discussion on this matter is probably unnecessary, as the exploded photo has answered my question completely, and the answer is that the horn strip is not a horn strip, it is a horn collar, and using that technique of jointing as shown in post 42, fixing with fish glue would be possible.

So I believe that we have established conclusively that the use of a horn collar on Malay sandang walikat scabbards used for sundang was possible prior to the advent of modern adhesives.

Of course, it would be very nice to get confirmation in some form that this collar was actually used prior to WWII.

We've diverged quite considerably from the original direction of enquiry here, but this direction we are headed in is of some interest, so I'm going to continue down this track for a little while, not to offer answers , but to raise questions that people who are closer to, and have greater interest in sundangs than I do, might like to pursue.

Stone and Gardner are the two earliest writers I can think of who mention Malay sundang (sondang). Clifford also mentions sundang, but I don't think I've got a copy of the paper concerned, and I am uncertain if there are illustrations.

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.

In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay --- maybe none, as Stone gives specific locations of origin, but many of the weapons illustrated do not have scabbards.

In Gardner there is one sundang illustrated, and that has a sandang walikat scabbard that appears not to have the horn collar.

I do have one other reference that might be useful. I have quite a lot of UK dealers catalogues that cover the period 1955 to about 1990. In these catalogues there are a number of sundang/Moro keris shown. The vast bulk of these weapons are without scabbards. Where a scabbard is present it is not a SW.

This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".

Possibly a similar thing occurred with the Malay sundang?

Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?

Now I want to return to the core question:-

is the scabbard for the keris shown in post #1 of this thread original to the blade, or is it an old scabbard that has been adapted for use with a more recent blade?

Based upon what I can see in the photographs, and upon what I have seen in physical examples, it was my opinion that the replacement buntut, and the horn strip at the mouth of this scabbard were certain indicators that this was a scabbard that had been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.

Dave Henkel has stated that he has never seen a keris of normal size fitted with this type of scabbard.

Nobody else has come forward and advised of the existence of any other examples of this type of scabbard fitted to a normal size keris.

This keris in this SW scabbard is clearly an anomaly.

In my experience, where we find a keris that is a "one off" , or that deviates from the norm in any way, that keris needs to be looked at with the deepest suspicion. We should never forget that keris of all types come from very traditional, very hierarchically structured societies. In these societies people avoid variation from the norm.

Based upon the foregoing, I believe that at this point, the weight of evidence is heavily in favour of the scabbard shown post #1 of this thread being a scabbard that has been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.

I would be prepared to retreat from this opinion if we could establish that the horn "strip" shown in the photograph is not a horn strip, but in fact is a horn collar, and the mouth of the scabbard is an adequate fit to the blade, further, that the scabbard has not been shortened and this shortening covered with a buntut.

Regretably we are working from photographs, and the evidence that we need to establish the authenticity of this scabbard cannot be obtained --- unless this keris fell into the hands of one of our members, in which case we can have a complete and detailed examination carried out, and I might be able to reverse my opinion.

17th March 2010, 01:50 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	G'day Alan, All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person. I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought). I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples. Attached Images

17th March 2010, 02:01 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age. I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up. Attached Images

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17th March 2010, 12:10 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Dear PenangsangII, may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall? Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it? Regards Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 12:31 PM.

17th March 2010, 01:52 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Alan, I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better). Thanks.

17th March 2010, 02:03 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat. Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

17th March 2010, 02:10 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Malay sundangs are pretty rare as a category (about as rare as cotengs, I reckon). I think I have probably only seen around a dozen or so. I think more than half are in sandang walikat sheaths.

17th March 2010, 02:18 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Wow, we have gathered 8 examples of Malay sundangs in 1 thread! That's quite a feat!

17th March 2010, 11:20 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Thanks Rasdan and Kai Wee. Kai Wee, to answer your question on whether I can supply a photo of a sundang that is in sandang walikat (SW) scabbard without the horn strip. No, I cannot, as I do not own one. I know of several in somebody else's collection, but this gentleman has always refused permission to photograph anything in his collection --- I hate to think what the response might be if I asked for permission to publish a photo on the internet. However, there is a photo of a sundang together with its SW scabbard in Gardner.This scabbard appears not to have the horn strip. But further discussion on this matter is probably unnecessary, as the exploded photo has answered my question completely, and the answer is that the horn strip is not a horn strip, it is a horn collar, and using that technique of jointing as shown in post 42, fixing with fish glue would be possible. So I believe that we have established conclusively that the use of a horn collar on Malay sandang walikat scabbards used for sundang was possible prior to the advent of modern adhesives. Of course, it would be very nice to get confirmation in some form that this collar was actually used prior to WWII. We've diverged quite considerably from the original direction of enquiry here, but this direction we are headed in is of some interest, so I'm going to continue down this track for a little while, not to offer answers , but to raise questions that people who are closer to, and have greater interest in sundangs than I do, might like to pursue. Stone and Gardner are the two earliest writers I can think of who mention Malay sundang (sondang). Clifford also mentions sundang, but I don't think I've got a copy of the paper concerned, and I am uncertain if there are illustrations. Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade. In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay --- maybe none, as Stone gives specific locations of origin, but many of the weapons illustrated do not have scabbards. In Gardner there is one sundang illustrated, and that has a sandang walikat scabbard that appears not to have the horn collar. I do have one other reference that might be useful. I have quite a lot of UK dealers catalogues that cover the period 1955 to about 1990. In these catalogues there are a number of sundang/Moro keris shown. The vast bulk of these weapons are without scabbards. Where a scabbard is present it is not a SW. This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat". Possibly a similar thing occurred with the Malay sundang? Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years? Now I want to return to the core question:- is the scabbard for the keris shown in post #1 of this thread original to the blade, or is it an old scabbard that has been adapted for use with a more recent blade? Based upon what I can see in the photographs, and upon what I have seen in physical examples, it was my opinion that the replacement buntut, and the horn strip at the mouth of this scabbard were certain indicators that this was a scabbard that had been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made. Dave Henkel has stated that he has never seen a keris of normal size fitted with this type of scabbard. Nobody else has come forward and advised of the existence of any other examples of this type of scabbard fitted to a normal size keris. This keris in this SW scabbard is clearly an anomaly. In my experience, where we find a keris that is a "one off" , or that deviates from the norm in any way, that keris needs to be looked at with the deepest suspicion. We should never forget that keris of all types come from very traditional, very hierarchically structured societies. In these societies people avoid variation from the norm. Based upon the foregoing, I believe that at this point, the weight of evidence is heavily in favour of the scabbard shown post #1 of this thread being a scabbard that has been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made. I would be prepared to retreat from this opinion if we could establish that the horn "strip" shown in the photograph is not a horn strip, but in fact is a horn collar, and the mouth of the scabbard is an adequate fit to the blade, further, that the scabbard has not been shortened and this shortening covered with a buntut. Regretably we are working from photographs, and the evidence that we need to establish the authenticity of this scabbard cannot be obtained --- unless this keris fell into the hands of one of our members, in which case we can have a complete and detailed examination carried out, and I might be able to reverse my opinion.