Bali wedding Keris

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maybe somebody wore it at a wedding?

Well that's why i asked if there was provenance of this. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that there is any particular form of dress or keris that is specifically for weddings and i just wanted to be sure that no one was getting the impression that this is what a keris used in a Balinese wedding need look like.
Kai Wee, i think that you are probably correct. If you were busy high ranking nobility marrying you third concubine and couldn't be bothered showing up for your wedding this was probably something you could do. I do not believe that this was a general practice or one that just anybody could get away with.

[chregu]

good evening together
I've chewed the keris 3 years ago, the salesman told me that.
I bought this keris in Switzerland. from one of really should know. Martin Kerner, he's book author, keris handles from the Malay Archipelago.
I am not a specialist keris, almost everyone can tell me anything. smile.
so I'm glad to be in this forum and to hear other opinions too.
So, what think you know what kind of a keris?
gruss chregu

[David]

Originally Posted by chregu

So, what think you know what kind of a keris?

I am not sure what you mean exactly by this "kind" of keris. It is a fairly average Bali style keris in a form of Balinese formal dress (in regards to the sheath) which would, i suppose, make it appropriately dressed for a wedding. This sheath appears to be a fairly well carved one and looks to be of ebony and some other wood on the stem. The blade doesn not have the typical Balinese, high polished surface and stain. Could be it was restained outside of Bali or it might be from Lombok where the high polish staining was not always used. The handle looks like a somewhat low quality version of what i have heard many describe as a Bayu hilt, though i am not certain if this is actually supposed to depict Bayu (a wind god) or not. I cannot tell if it is just brass or if a god plating has been added over it, but the "stones" seem to be mostly pastes or low quality stones. I have attached an example of a higher quality version of this hilt style. This one also mixes pastes with actually stones which is not uncommon in Bali.

[Rick]

I recall Sajen's remark in the painted keris thread :
" 1994 I have seen one in an antique shop in Klungkung for sale. When I come back two days later the owner have rent it to someone who want to be married. "

Could it be that this was rented out for weddings ?

In America we rent tuxedos for weddings .

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

I recall Sajen's remark in the painted keris thread :
" 1994 I have seen one in an antique shop in Klungkung for sale. When I come back two days later the owner have rent it to someone who want to be married. "

Could it be that this was rented out for weddings ?

In America we rent tuxedos for weddings .

Seems odd to rent a keris for a wedding given it's cultural significance, but perhaps in recent years it has come to that.
It's only us guys who get away with renting out a tux. Women most usually buy their wedding dresses and they hold greater meaning for them. It would seem to me that a wedding keris would have more significance to the groom than something that can be rented.

[Rick]

True, still if you don't have one ; what do you do ?

Most likely we will never know the intention of the description 'Wedding Keris' as stated here .

[kulbuntet]

Hi all,

Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

[Gustav]

Margaret Wiener, "Visible and invisible realms (power, magic, and colonial conquest in Bali)", page 66 :

"His keris could, in certain contexts, even represent a man: someone who could not attend a meeting could send his keris in his place; a man of rank could marry a low-ranking woman by proxy, using one of his lesser keris. Keris are rather obvious phallic symbols; in marriage rites, the groom still stabs a keris through a small bamboo mat to symbolize the sexual relation between husband and wife even though nowadays his wedding is the only occasion on which a man is still likely to wear a keris."

[Gustav]

About wearing of figural, or golden and ivory hilts: Jasper and Mas Pirngadie, De bewerking van niet-edele metalen, page 230, writes:

"Golden and ivory hilts of these four species (deling or togog, lotjeng or grantim, kotjet-kotjettan, djaglir) were weared only by persons, who does belong to the triwangsa (the three casts). Nowadays a man doesn't praktice this rule strictly and one can see also a rich soedra's (shudra's) wearing golden hilts."

Is there any evidence, that this rule wasn't strongly complied already in 19 Century in states with stronger dutch influence? There probably must be some bigger changes in some parts of Bali already after 1860-ties.

But either way, we probably cannot expect, a low quality hilt of one of the four species, made of another material then gold and ivory (and silver?) would be older then beginning of 20 Century.

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi all,

Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

Yes, thank you, i am aware of the fan in the hand. Still, like all things to do with keris i have heard this attribution disputed. This is why i approach all definite identifications with caution.
I think that in this day and age all restrictions on gold worn by non-royals is most probably gone. After all, Indonesia is not a monarchy.
I also stop short of referring to all but the most obvious keris items as "tourist". Certainly this is a low quality example. Even the one i posted is not on the highest quality. If this keris had indeed been used in a wedding (and i guess this is possible) then this hilt would have seen actually indigenous use. can't really call it tourist then if that were the case. I am sure that in times where money is short people use what they can afford. As i noted this one looks brass w/ mostly pastes. It should be pointed out however that in Bali at least, the use of glass pastes instead of actual stones is not necessarily a sign of poor quality as some very fine Bali hilts will attest to, having pastes mounted right next to sapphires and rubies.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi all,

Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

Sorry, I don't think that the hilt tourist made and I think that not all "stones" from glass, the orange one and the milky one on the stomach seems to be real stones and the hilt shows some wear. Of course it's a very simple hilt and the blade is also not very fine worked while the sheat is of better quality.
Maybe a composition? But this is difficult to say by pictures.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry, I don't think that the hilt tourist made and I think that not all "stones" from glass, the orange one and the milky one on the stomach seems to be real stones and the hilt shows some wear.

i don't think anyone is really suggesting anything different here Sajen. And again i will state that pastes can be found on very high quality Balinese dress as well as low grade like this one.

[A. G. Maisey]

A wife is not the same as a concubine.

Depending upon the the social position of the man,the rank of the wife, and the language used, there are a number of possible names for wives and for concubines. It would serve no purpose to list them all here.

In a Javanese traditional situation of a man having four wives, the first wife is taken from a suitable level of status and is the mother of the heir to the father. The heir will be the first born son of the first wife, but the first wife need not necessarily be the first wife who is married, she could well be the second, third, or even fourth wife married.

Concubines hold a lower status than wives and cannot provide an heir, however in rare cases a man may name a son from a concubine to be his heir.

Not only is the heir not able to be produced from a concubine, except if the father designates him as heir, but concubines do not necessarily need to provide a political or business alliance. The function of the first wife is not only to produce the legitimate heir, but also the political or business alliance obtained by this marriage is expected to be the most important. The other three primary wives, and many of the concubines will also provide political or business alliances, however, a concubine need not necessarily provide a political or business alliance.

Immense problems of succession can arise when a man fails to name one of his wives as his first wife, or if he fails to name his first born son from his first wife as his legitimate heir, or if he names a son other than the first born son from the first wife as his legitimate heir.

The status of wives, concubines and heirs can be a matter of concern in not only royal families, but also in noble and aristocratic families, and in powerful business families. It is not of such great concern in families of lower status and in the modern day where most men have only a single wife, it is obviously of no concern. However, I have been informed that in some rural areas where it is necessary for a farmer to take more than one wife in order to comply with traditional maritial practices following birth of a child, and in order to have sufficient assistance to run his farm, the position of first wife is as highly regarded as in a royal or aristocratic situation.

Against this background, it will be understood that a man's keris should not be used to represent him in his marriage to his official first wife.

The keris may be used in the case of lesser marriages but would normally only be used in the case of extreme necessity preventing the man from attending his wedding. Such necessity could be something such as the man be absent at war.

But in the case of the taking of a concubine the use of the keris to represent the man is completely acceptable.

In this circumstance, the function of the keris is to validate the words spoken on behalf of the absent bridegroom. In a modern day situation that validation is more often provided by a letter of authority.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A wife is not the same as a concubine.

Thanks for clearing this up Alan an for all the addition information.