Projectile?

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2010, 01:43 PM

Hi Gav and Colin,
Excellent observations on this extremely unusual object, and I completely agree Gav, it is truly a shame when these intriguing subjects simply fall away without any effort or suggestion toward discovering what they might be.

The reason I bumped this forward was to instigate more discussion, and to note the possibility that has been suggested to me by research done by Anandalal. I had not yet added the subsequent material as I was still compiling notes and should have bumped the thread with notes added

Apparantly in early forms of cannon, there were varying types of projectiles along with, of course, many prototypes of devices to propel these using the then innovative use of gunpowder. According to descriptions of such early forms of 'artillery' in the 1932 work of J.L.Boots ("Korean Arms and Armour"), one such projectile fired from a 'fire tube' was a huge arrow, sometimes nearly 6 feet long. These had a heavy iron point or head of up to between 4 and 5 lbs. Although I'm not sure of the size of this example, it should be noted that in some cases there were numerous arrows fired simultaneously and of course commensurately smaller, which would correspond with Gav's observation as well of insertion into a bamboo shaft.

These appear to have been in use along with many variations in both the type of propulsive weapon detonating the gunpowder, and the type of projectile(s) from about latter 15th and into 16th century in Korea, which seems of course relatively late considering much earlier use in China and Europe of gunpowder in warfare.

As noted, this iron object is provenanced from Sri Lanka, and there does seem the distinct possibility this might be the head component of one of these type of early projectiles. Naturally the question is what type of weapons firing these type 'arrows' might have been used there, and does this correspond to known data such as narratives, artwork or provenanced similar items that might better identify it.

With this perspective giving better view of the direction headed in the search for identification, I hope we can continue with observations and ideas.

All best regards,
Jim

Anandalal N. · 7th January 2010, 03:42 PM

Thanks Jim for that introduction Clearly there is no way of confirming this. Let me add the following info. to the discussion for now. Ribeyro a professional soldier arrived in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1640 and his book Fatalidade Historica is dedicated to the King of Portugal on 8th January, 1685. Writing of the early period of Portuguese in Sri Lanka he writes as follows:

"All pretence was now cast aside and they commenced to besiege us ... a host of twenty thousand men was soon assembled, two bastions were hastily erected with the help of palm trees and mounted with cannon, while more than six hundred large muskets of the size of small cannon hurled against our walls wooden darts ten palms long by day and fire lances by night." - Translated from the original Portuguese by P. E. Peiris in Ribeiro's History of Ceilao (1909)

Yes it talks of wooden darts but ten palms long. I believe Fernando explained the length of a palm in another post and this makes the dart over 6 feet in length.

The blunt heavy head of this artefact can only have an impact if hurled with great force.

The weight of the artefact is approximately 450 grams.

By the way, the elephant goad or ankus is out. The ankus has to have a recurved prong for pulling on the pressure points of the elephant. If you watch a mahout in action you will see that he rarely uses the forward faced point which in fact is only used to protect oneself should the elephant turns suddenly towards him i.e. to push the elephant away from oneself.

Regards.

Anandalal N. · 7th January 2010, 04:13 PM

Rebeiro's comment relates to the year 1519.

Atlantia · 7th January 2010, 06:25 PM

well, this is a strange item.
The shape, with the flattened side of the 'ring' facing the long 'pin' end makes me wonder if this could be some form of Belaying pin.
I've heard of Iron belaying pins before, and varying sizes for smaller vessels.
Also of course, the belaying pin was often an improvised weapon, could it be that this is a pin 'designed' to double as a weapon? Or just a posh form?

What is the black stuff on the surface? A rustproofing coating?

Of course thats not really explaining the sleeve.

Dmitry · 7th January 2010, 06:27 PM

Some kind of masonry implement?

katana · 7th January 2010, 06:44 PM

I'm wondering whether this is a lance head.....why waste silver on a projectile, that in all likelyhood, you would never retrieve. I think the raised 'ring' is possibly a way of weighting the end for better balance or to help prevent penetrating too deeply. Bamboo would be an excellent shaft for a lance and a galloping horse would surely provide the necessary momentum, to do some serious damage to its target. A very sharply pointed lancehead may be a disadvantage in that it would be deeply imbedded after hitting the unfortunate victim

and difficult to retrieve whilst on horseback.

A few pictures...for the fun of it. The lancers on foot is from a painting entitled CHARGING ON FOOT WITH THE LANCE: BENGAL LANCERS ATTACK GERMAN TRENCHES.—From the Painting by R. Caton Woodville.

Regards David

.

bluelake · 10th January 2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Apparantly in early forms of cannon, there were varying types of projectiles along with, of course, many prototypes of devices to propel these using the then innovative use of gunpowder. According to descriptions of such early forms of 'artillery' in the 1932 work of J.L.Boots ("Korean Arms and Armour"), one such projectile fired from a 'fire tube' was a huge arrow, sometimes nearly 6 feet long. These had a heavy iron point or head of up to between 4 and 5 lbs. Although I'm not sure of the size of this example, it should be noted that in some cases there were numerous arrows fired simultaneously and of course commensurately smaller, which would correspond with Gav's observation as well of insertion into a bamboo shaft.

These appear to have been in use along with many variations in both the type of propulsive weapon detonating the gunpowder, and the type of projectile(s) from about latter 15th and into 16th century in Korea, which seems of course relatively late considering much earlier use in China and Europe of gunpowder in warfare.

Here are a few short clips mentioned in the previous post--I fixed the last two, so they should work now:

http://www.koreanarchery.org/classic/bhwangja.mpg

http://www.koreanarchery.org/classic/heonja.mpg

http://www.koreanarchery.org/classic/jija.mpg

My doctoral dissertation is on firearms in Joseon dynasty Korea (1392-1910). The first recorded use of a firearm in Korea was in 1356 when an arrow cannon was fired for the king to see.

Anandalal N. · 10th January 2010, 04:05 PM

Dear Bluelake,

That is extremely interesting. Thank you very much for providing the updated links. I have also sent you a PM.

Regards.

Anandalal.

7th January 2010, 06:44 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I'm wondering whether this is a lance head.....why waste silver on a projectile, that in all likelyhood, you would never retrieve. I think the raised 'ring' is possibly a way of weighting the end for better balance or to help prevent penetrating too deeply. Bamboo would be an excellent shaft for a lance and a galloping horse would surely provide the necessary momentum, to do some serious damage to its target. A very sharply pointed lancehead may be a disadvantage in that it would be deeply imbedded after hitting the unfortunate victim and difficult to retrieve whilst on horseback. A few pictures...for the fun of it. The lancers on foot is from a painting entitled CHARGING ON FOOT WITH THE LANCE: BENGAL LANCERS ATTACK GERMAN TRENCHES.—From the Painting by R. Caton Woodville. Regards David . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 7th January 2010 at 07:12 PM.

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7th January 2010, 01:43 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Gav and Colin, Excellent observations on this extremely unusual object, and I completely agree Gav, it is truly a shame when these intriguing subjects simply fall away without any effort or suggestion toward discovering what they might be. The reason I bumped this forward was to instigate more discussion, and to note the possibility that has been suggested to me by research done by Anandalal. I had not yet added the subsequent material as I was still compiling notes and should have bumped the thread with notes added Apparantly in early forms of cannon, there were varying types of projectiles along with, of course, many prototypes of devices to propel these using the then innovative use of gunpowder. According to descriptions of such early forms of 'artillery' in the 1932 work of J.L.Boots ("Korean Arms and Armour"), one such projectile fired from a 'fire tube' was a huge arrow, sometimes nearly 6 feet long. These had a heavy iron point or head of up to between 4 and 5 lbs. Although I'm not sure of the size of this example, it should be noted that in some cases there were numerous arrows fired simultaneously and of course commensurately smaller, which would correspond with Gav's observation as well of insertion into a bamboo shaft. These appear to have been in use along with many variations in both the type of propulsive weapon detonating the gunpowder, and the type of projectile(s) from about latter 15th and into 16th century in Korea, which seems of course relatively late considering much earlier use in China and Europe of gunpowder in warfare. As noted, this iron object is provenanced from Sri Lanka, and there does seem the distinct possibility this might be the head component of one of these type of early projectiles. Naturally the question is what type of weapons firing these type 'arrows' might have been used there, and does this correspond to known data such as narratives, artwork or provenanced similar items that might better identify it. With this perspective giving better view of the direction headed in the search for identification, I hope we can continue with observations and ideas. All best regards, Jim

7th January 2010, 03:42 PM	#2
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Thanks Jim for that introduction Clearly there is no way of confirming this. Let me add the following info. to the discussion for now. Ribeyro a professional soldier arrived in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1640 and his book Fatalidade Historica is dedicated to the King of Portugal on 8th January, 1685. Writing of the early period of Portuguese in Sri Lanka he writes as follows: "All pretence was now cast aside and they commenced to besiege us ... a host of twenty thousand men was soon assembled, two bastions were hastily erected with the help of palm trees and mounted with cannon, while more than six hundred large muskets of the size of small cannon hurled against our walls wooden darts ten palms long by day and fire lances by night." - Translated from the original Portuguese by P. E. Peiris in Ribeiro's History of Ceilao (1909) Yes it talks of wooden darts but ten palms long. I believe Fernando explained the length of a palm in another post and this makes the dart over 6 feet in length. The blunt heavy head of this artefact can only have an impact if hurled with great force. The weight of the artefact is approximately 450 grams. By the way, the elephant goad or ankus is out. The ankus has to have a recurved prong for pulling on the pressure points of the elephant. If you watch a mahout in action you will see that he rarely uses the forward faced point which in fact is only used to protect oneself should the elephant turns suddenly towards him i.e. to push the elephant away from oneself. Regards.

7th January 2010, 04:13 PM	#3
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Rebeiro's comment relates to the year 1519.

7th January 2010, 06:25 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	well, this is a strange item. The shape, with the flattened side of the 'ring' facing the long 'pin' end makes me wonder if this could be some form of Belaying pin. I've heard of Iron belaying pins before, and varying sizes for smaller vessels. Also of course, the belaying pin was often an improvised weapon, could it be that this is a pin 'designed' to double as a weapon? Or just a posh form? What is the black stuff on the surface? A rustproofing coating? Of course thats not really explaining the sleeve.

7th January 2010, 06:27 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Some kind of masonry implement?

10th January 2010, 04:05 PM	#8
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Dear Bluelake, That is extremely interesting. Thank you very much for providing the updated links. I have also sent you a PM. Regards. Anandalal.