BICHWA (THE SCORPIONS STING)

Atlantia · 6th January 2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

"JUST FOR FUN HERE ARE SOME OF THE CURRENT EBAY FANTASY ITEMS. PROBABLY VERY ATTRACTIVE TO THE YOUNG BOYS STILL IN THE COMIC BOOK STAGE.
Attached Images"

They are for middle-aged adults still in the comics book stage :-)

Should I admit now that I have Kano's Mortal Kombat 'Raptor' by Gil Hibben?

Um, middle aged adult into: video games, knives and movies?..... How could I 'not' buy it?

VANDOO · 7th January 2010, 12:04 AM

I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN THE FANTASY KNIVES OR THOSE WHO LIKE THEM. I HAVE AN EARLY VERSION OF THE RAPTOR WITH GILL HIBBENS SIGNATURE.

I NO LONGER READ COMICS ,ITS NOT REALLY NECESSARY THESE DAYS AS THEY HAVE MADE MOVIES BASED ON MANY OF THEM. I WILL BUY A FANTASY ITEM BASED ON IF I FIND IT ASETHILLCY PLEASING (NEAT) AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT.

THE POWER OF CERTAN ANIMALS HAVE BEEN ADMIRED AND FEARED SINCE THE HUNTER GATHER DAYS. THE FANG AND CLAW WERE FEARED BECAUSE THEY COULD DEAL DEATH TO YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. HUMANS HAVE A NATURAL FIGHTING INSTINCT TO STRIKE WITH HANDS AND FEET AS WELL AS TO BITE. HAVING SMALL TEETH AND NO CLAWS TO SPEAK OF WE NO DOUBT MANUFACTURED SOME TO BE USED FOR STRIKING WITH OUR HANDS. THE CLUB OR HAND HELD OR THROWN ROCK BEING OUR MOST LIKELY FIRST WEAPON.
WHEN RELIGION AND HUNTING/ FIGHTING CULTS OR GROUPS WERE FORMED THEY OFTEN HAD A TOTUM OR CLAN SYMBOL ECT. WEAPONS MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY THIS ANIMAL AS WERE COSTUMES AND MASKS. WHERE THE SCORPION DOSEN'T EXHIST SUCH AS IN COLD WET CLIMATES IT WOULD NOT BE PRESENT. BUT IN AREAS WHERE IT IS PLENTIFUL AND THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING STUNG WAS HIGH IT IS MORE LIKELY TO RECEIVE MORE HUMAN INTREST. THE SERPENT HAS ALSO RECEIVED LOTS OF ATTENTION AND IS IN MANY LEGENDS AND OFTEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE SUPERNATURAL. THUS THE NAGA AS WELL AS THE SCORPION AMONG OTHERS MAY FIGURE INTO DESCRIPTIONS OF BLADES OF ALL SORTS.

VANDOO · 8th January 2010, 04:39 PM

TO SUM UP MY THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE I LET IT FADE INTO THE HAZE.

TOOLS ARE USUALLY DESIGNED TO PREFORM A CERTIAN FUNCTION BUT IT IS POSSIBLE NOT ALL WEAPONS BEGAN OR WERE DESIGNED JUST FOR THEIR INTENDED FUNCTION.

SOME MAY HAVE STARTED AS PURELY CEREMONIAL OBJECTS AND BECAUSE THEY WERE THE WEAPON OF SOME FEARED SPIRIT OR DIETY IN THE SOCIETYS LEGENDS SOMEONE MADE A WEAPON THAT EVOLVED BASED ON THESE WEAPONS FROM THE GODS OR SPIRITS.

THE EARLY BRONZE AGE WEAPONS WERE FAIRLY SIMULAR IN BLADE FORMS AND THE MAJORITY WERE STRAIGHT BLADES. ONE BRONZE EGYPTIAN SWORD BEING AN EXCEPTION, SORRY I FORGET ITS NAME ,IT IS THE ODD SHAPED CHOPPER STYLE. IT WAS USED IN THE MUMMY MOVIES BY THE PHAROS GAURDS.

I THINK THE SUPERNATURAL , RELIGIOUS AND ANIMISTIC BELIEFS HAD MORE INFLUENCE ON THE DESIGN OF MANY WEAPONS DUE TO THEIR USE TO TAKE HUMAN LIFE. PERHAPS SOMEWHERE THERE ARE PROBABLY REFRENCES TO SUCH OCCURANCES BUT IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO LINK IT ALL TOGETHER. THOR OF COURSE USED A MAGICAL HAMMER, SHIVA HAD A TRIDENT AMONG OTHER WEAPONS AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXAMPLES.
A WARRIOR THEN AS NOW NEEDED MORE PROTECTION FROM THE GODS, TOTUMS OR SPIRITS HIS SOCIETY BELIEVED IN AS HE WAS GOING INTO HARMS WAY FOR HIS PEOPLE. SOMETIMES THIS MAY HAVE HAD AN INFLUENCE ON THE FORMS AND SYMBOLS ON WEAPONS.
OF COURSE SOME ANCIENT BUSNESS MAN MAY HAVE MADE A NEAT CURVED DAGGER AND CALLED IT A SCORPIONS STING AND EVERYONE WANTED ONE.

BUT
I PREFER THE INFLUENCE OF LEGENDS, SUPERSTITION AND THE ANIMISTIC BELIEFS IN CERTIAN FEARED AND RESPECTED GODS OR ANIMALS AS THE INFLUENCES.

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2010, 08:18 PM

Absolutely excellent thread Vandoo!!!!
Its great to have focus on a particular weapon, post examples, references and then share observations overall just as done here, and I've often wondered about the colorful 'scorpion' term.

I think it is interesting that in the decoration on many Arabian scabbards and perhaps other motif, the 'aghrab', a stylized device to deflect the evil eye in the terms of the folk religion/superstition, represents the scorpion.

Fascinating discussion on these bichwa, and I am still puzzled by those with double blades.......would they be associated with zhulfikar representation?

All best regards,
Jim

VANDOO · 9th January 2010, 03:16 AM

THERE IS THE POSIBILITY OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ZHULFIKAR AND ANY TWO BLADED WEAPON. BUT IT IS UNLIKELY THAT ALL TWO BLADED SWORDS OR DAGGERS WERE INFLUENCED ONLY BY THAT SOURCE, INDEED THE ORIGINAL ZHULFIKAR SWORD OF THE PROPHET MAY HAVE ORIGINATED FROM SOME EARLIER SOURCE OR INFLUENCE EVEN IF IT WAS A CUSTOM MADE SWORD. I DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY OF THAT PARTICULAR SWORD SO CAN'T SPECULATE ON ITS ORIGINS OR HOW IT CAME INTO THE POSSESION OF THE PROPHET. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS DONE THE RESEARCH COULD START A POST ON IT.

IT IS UNCOMMON BUT SCORPIONS WITH TWO STINGERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN TWO TAILS WITH STINGERS HAVE BEEN FOUND OFTEN ENOUGH TO BE NOTED IN REFRENCES ON THE CRITTERS. IN THESE CASES YOU GET DOUBBLE THE POSION AND PAIN.

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2010, 09:54 PM

This is an interesting thread (uh......except for the trip to fantasyland

but as Ariel notes, we've all got a little 'kid' left in us) and I've been looking into some things, which I hope will help with Vandoo's intent in examining these fascinating daggers. I know I've learned more on these, which I will share here, and would appreciate any clarification as required.

First of all, the dagger at the bottom of post #2 is indeed a khanjarli, which has the very recurved blade seem on khanjars, with the primary distinction apparantly the lunette shaped pommel, in this case ivory, but there are examples with buffalo horn or ebony known. Interestingly, the chiseled motif in the center of the blade amidst the fullering appears to be the 'kundalini flame' device often seen in the blades of many katars.

It is important to note that the recurved shape of these blades appears to actually be with reference to the shape of the buffalo horn, which was believed to have been used in earlier stabbing weapons. The reference to the scorpion or its sting appears to be more metaphorical, inferring the sting of death or to that effect. As mentioned by Vandoo, the scorpion has been used in such symbolism in many cultures over time.
As previously mentioned, the agrab (stylized scorpion image) is a well known device used on Arabian weapons to deflect the glance of the evil eye, with the scorpion presumably fearsome enough to have that effect.

As with many weapons and the often confounding terminology that is often associated with them, the term bichwa seems colloquially applied more than anything else. That doesnt help the double blade conundrum I guess

and this may have to do with Indian propensity for unusual and often multi-bladed weapons.

With these terms again, the term tiger tooth for daggers seems to be a case of intrerpolation of metaphoric terms. As with the bagh-nakh, the fearsome looking set of tiger claws, some daggers are referred to as the tigers claw I believe. It seems I have seen some unfounded reference to tiger tooth used regarding daggers, but that seems to have been unsubstantiated.

The term 'tooth' with reference to daggers may be associated with the term jamadhar, which as discussed years ago, is the proper term for the transverse grip daggers we all know as the katar. The error is traced back to Egerton, and was carried forward by subsequent writers.
Loosely interpreted, the 'jamadhar' term from Sanskrit terms means the 'tooth of death', without complex etymological breakdown.

The term 'tooth' of course also may be considered with the materials used in the hilts of these weapons, where walrus tooth was often a source of ivory,
and perhaps zoological elements might have inspired phraseology.

All best regards,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 11th February 2010, 09:24 PM

The diverse expression of form in indigenous Hindu weapons is in and of itself enough to draw someone into the timeless romanticism many collectors feel... and the bichwa is one such example.

Below are a few photos of the lone bichwa I own, which I acquired at a chor bazaar (thieve's market) in the south of India in 1997. It is brass hilted with an iron blade, and is relatively small (many bichwas were made of a size so as to be easily concealed), measuring approximately 9 1/4 inches in OAL.

Mercenary · 20th August 2017, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The reference to the scorpion or its sting appears to be more metaphorical, inferring the sting of death or to that effect.
Jim

.
Exactly. Metaphorical. But only for us not for Indian of 17-19th. For them the following words were cognate. Why do you think?

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7th January 2010, 12:04 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN THE FANTASY KNIVES OR THOSE WHO LIKE THEM. I HAVE AN EARLY VERSION OF THE RAPTOR WITH GILL HIBBENS SIGNATURE. I NO LONGER READ COMICS ,ITS NOT REALLY NECESSARY THESE DAYS AS THEY HAVE MADE MOVIES BASED ON MANY OF THEM. I WILL BUY A FANTASY ITEM BASED ON IF I FIND IT ASETHILLCY PLEASING (NEAT) AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT. THE POWER OF CERTAN ANIMALS HAVE BEEN ADMIRED AND FEARED SINCE THE HUNTER GATHER DAYS. THE FANG AND CLAW WERE FEARED BECAUSE THEY COULD DEAL DEATH TO YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. HUMANS HAVE A NATURAL FIGHTING INSTINCT TO STRIKE WITH HANDS AND FEET AS WELL AS TO BITE. HAVING SMALL TEETH AND NO CLAWS TO SPEAK OF WE NO DOUBT MANUFACTURED SOME TO BE USED FOR STRIKING WITH OUR HANDS. THE CLUB OR HAND HELD OR THROWN ROCK BEING OUR MOST LIKELY FIRST WEAPON. WHEN RELIGION AND HUNTING/ FIGHTING CULTS OR GROUPS WERE FORMED THEY OFTEN HAD A TOTUM OR CLAN SYMBOL ECT. WEAPONS MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY THIS ANIMAL AS WERE COSTUMES AND MASKS. WHERE THE SCORPION DOSEN'T EXHIST SUCH AS IN COLD WET CLIMATES IT WOULD NOT BE PRESENT. BUT IN AREAS WHERE IT IS PLENTIFUL AND THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING STUNG WAS HIGH IT IS MORE LIKELY TO RECEIVE MORE HUMAN INTREST. THE SERPENT HAS ALSO RECEIVED LOTS OF ATTENTION AND IS IN MANY LEGENDS AND OFTEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE SUPERNATURAL. THUS THE NAGA AS WELL AS THE SCORPION AMONG OTHERS MAY FIGURE INTO DESCRIPTIONS OF BLADES OF ALL SORTS. Last edited by VANDOO; 7th January 2010 at 01:18 AM.

8th January 2010, 04:39 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TO SUM UP MY THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE I LET IT FADE INTO THE HAZE. TOOLS ARE USUALLY DESIGNED TO PREFORM A CERTIAN FUNCTION BUT IT IS POSSIBLE NOT ALL WEAPONS BEGAN OR WERE DESIGNED JUST FOR THEIR INTENDED FUNCTION. SOME MAY HAVE STARTED AS PURELY CEREMONIAL OBJECTS AND BECAUSE THEY WERE THE WEAPON OF SOME FEARED SPIRIT OR DIETY IN THE SOCIETYS LEGENDS SOMEONE MADE A WEAPON THAT EVOLVED BASED ON THESE WEAPONS FROM THE GODS OR SPIRITS. THE EARLY BRONZE AGE WEAPONS WERE FAIRLY SIMULAR IN BLADE FORMS AND THE MAJORITY WERE STRAIGHT BLADES. ONE BRONZE EGYPTIAN SWORD BEING AN EXCEPTION, SORRY I FORGET ITS NAME ,IT IS THE ODD SHAPED CHOPPER STYLE. IT WAS USED IN THE MUMMY MOVIES BY THE PHAROS GAURDS. I THINK THE SUPERNATURAL , RELIGIOUS AND ANIMISTIC BELIEFS HAD MORE INFLUENCE ON THE DESIGN OF MANY WEAPONS DUE TO THEIR USE TO TAKE HUMAN LIFE. PERHAPS SOMEWHERE THERE ARE PROBABLY REFRENCES TO SUCH OCCURANCES BUT IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO LINK IT ALL TOGETHER. THOR OF COURSE USED A MAGICAL HAMMER, SHIVA HAD A TRIDENT AMONG OTHER WEAPONS AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXAMPLES. A WARRIOR THEN AS NOW NEEDED MORE PROTECTION FROM THE GODS, TOTUMS OR SPIRITS HIS SOCIETY BELIEVED IN AS HE WAS GOING INTO HARMS WAY FOR HIS PEOPLE. SOMETIMES THIS MAY HAVE HAD AN INFLUENCE ON THE FORMS AND SYMBOLS ON WEAPONS. OF COURSE SOME ANCIENT BUSNESS MAN MAY HAVE MADE A NEAT CURVED DAGGER AND CALLED IT A SCORPIONS STING AND EVERYONE WANTED ONE. BUT I PREFER THE INFLUENCE OF LEGENDS, SUPERSTITION AND THE ANIMISTIC BELIEFS IN CERTIAN FEARED AND RESPECTED GODS OR ANIMALS AS THE INFLUENCES.

8th January 2010, 08:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,351	Absolutely excellent thread Vandoo!!!! Its great to have focus on a particular weapon, post examples, references and then share observations overall just as done here, and I've often wondered about the colorful 'scorpion' term. I think it is interesting that in the decoration on many Arabian scabbards and perhaps other motif, the 'aghrab', a stylized device to deflect the evil eye in the terms of the folk religion/superstition, represents the scorpion. Fascinating discussion on these bichwa, and I am still puzzled by those with double blades.......would they be associated with zhulfikar representation? All best regards, Jim

9th January 2010, 03:16 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE IS THE POSIBILITY OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ZHULFIKAR AND ANY TWO BLADED WEAPON. BUT IT IS UNLIKELY THAT ALL TWO BLADED SWORDS OR DAGGERS WERE INFLUENCED ONLY BY THAT SOURCE, INDEED THE ORIGINAL ZHULFIKAR SWORD OF THE PROPHET MAY HAVE ORIGINATED FROM SOME EARLIER SOURCE OR INFLUENCE EVEN IF IT WAS A CUSTOM MADE SWORD. I DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY OF THAT PARTICULAR SWORD SO CAN'T SPECULATE ON ITS ORIGINS OR HOW IT CAME INTO THE POSSESION OF THE PROPHET. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS DONE THE RESEARCH COULD START A POST ON IT. IT IS UNCOMMON BUT SCORPIONS WITH TWO STINGERS AND SOMETIMES EVEN TWO TAILS WITH STINGERS HAVE BEEN FOUND OFTEN ENOUGH TO BE NOTED IN REFRENCES ON THE CRITTERS. IN THESE CASES YOU GET DOUBBLE THE POSION AND PAIN.

9th January 2010, 09:54 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,351	This is an interesting thread (uh......except for the trip to fantasyland but as Ariel notes, we've all got a little 'kid' left in us) and I've been looking into some things, which I hope will help with Vandoo's intent in examining these fascinating daggers. I know I've learned more on these, which I will share here, and would appreciate any clarification as required. First of all, the dagger at the bottom of post #2 is indeed a khanjarli, which has the very recurved blade seem on khanjars, with the primary distinction apparantly the lunette shaped pommel, in this case ivory, but there are examples with buffalo horn or ebony known. Interestingly, the chiseled motif in the center of the blade amidst the fullering appears to be the 'kundalini flame' device often seen in the blades of many katars. It is important to note that the recurved shape of these blades appears to actually be with reference to the shape of the buffalo horn, which was believed to have been used in earlier stabbing weapons. The reference to the scorpion or its sting appears to be more metaphorical, inferring the sting of death or to that effect. As mentioned by Vandoo, the scorpion has been used in such symbolism in many cultures over time. As previously mentioned, the agrab (stylized scorpion image) is a well known device used on Arabian weapons to deflect the glance of the evil eye, with the scorpion presumably fearsome enough to have that effect. As with many weapons and the often confounding terminology that is often associated with them, the term bichwa seems colloquially applied more than anything else. That doesnt help the double blade conundrum I guess and this may have to do with Indian propensity for unusual and often multi-bladed weapons. With these terms again, the term tiger tooth for daggers seems to be a case of intrerpolation of metaphoric terms. As with the bagh-nakh, the fearsome looking set of tiger claws, some daggers are referred to as the tigers claw I believe. It seems I have seen some unfounded reference to tiger tooth used regarding daggers, but that seems to have been unsubstantiated. The term 'tooth' with reference to daggers may be associated with the term jamadhar, which as discussed years ago, is the proper term for the transverse grip daggers we all know as the katar. The error is traced back to Egerton, and was carried forward by subsequent writers. Loosely interpreted, the 'jamadhar' term from Sanskrit terms means the 'tooth of death', without complex etymological breakdown. The term 'tooth' of course also may be considered with the materials used in the hilts of these weapons, where walrus tooth was often a source of ivory, and perhaps zoological elements might have inspired phraseology. All best regards, Jim

11th February 2010, 09:24 PM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	The diverse expression of form in indigenous Hindu weapons is in and of itself enough to draw someone into the timeless romanticism many collectors feel... and the bichwa is one such example. Below are a few photos of the lone bichwa I own, which I acquired at a chor bazaar (thieve's market) in the south of India in 1997. It is brass hilted with an iron blade, and is relatively small (many bichwas were made of a size so as to be easily concealed), measuring approximately 9 1/4 inches in OAL.