Bebut sword

TKV · 4th January 2010, 02:49 PM

I think original item. M1907 type I.

ariel · 4th January 2010, 05:19 PM

Hope you are correct, but how can one be sure without decent pics of the stamps? I, for one, cannot read the inscriptions at all.

klewang · 4th January 2010, 05:40 PM

These are military issued? And were weapons like this standard issued with these kind of scabbards?
The scabbard looks a bit like a modified and shortened klewang (the Dutch military ones) version.

regards

TKV · 4th January 2010, 07:06 PM

These were officially issued by Zlatoust (most of them), Izhevsk (bow and arrow mark) and Artinsk russian weapons' factories.

TKV · 4th January 2010, 07:08 PM

2 Ariel: chinese and indian fakes are very bright and clean, and item's blade has original patina.

ariel · 4th January 2010, 11:32 PM

Aging steel blade is a piece of cake, they do it all the time.
You might be 100% right, but - no disrespect ! - I want to see the markings.
One thing is already making my antennae twitch: no markings on the upper scabbard fitting.

If I were the owner, I'd send good pics to a russian forum: some of these guys are incredibly knowledgeable and frightfully paranoid ( from daily exposure to bitter reality).

Marc · 5th January 2010, 11:49 AM

Ok, coming from someone not familiar at all with this particular model, but with some experience in fakes... yes, ageing metals is easy, which, coupled with less than ideal pics gets the job done.
Given the quality of the actual pictures and my level of familiarity with the model I don't dare to pass a judgement about the finer features or the lack of the usual brass fitting around the "guard", but I would like to point out a detail from my experience with other pieces: using a sharp instrument (knife, cutter, etc...) to add some wear to a leather or wood scabbard is a common practise. Usually it's done hitting it in a semi-random way. Overdoing it it's also fairly common, and tends to be a hint for a closer look. In this case, the scabbard is covered by marks from a sharp instrument, quite extensively, and quite homogenously, included the side that would be worn facing the body (see pic).
Again, let me be clear, I'm not passing any judgement. I can't: I haven't enough data. But, again, except in the most blissful cases, the signs that make us decide if an object is genuine or not are anything but clear and evident. More often than not, it's the accumulation of small details what makes us decide against a piece's authenticity. When there's enough lights in the board which are blinking red, we take a decision and call it "instinct", "nose" or "experience". It's normally well-applied accumulated knowledge, but it's sometimes hard to define or verbalize.
I just wanted to raise a flag that I feel deserves to be up, a call for, maybe, a pause and a deeper thought, that 's all.
Happy new year to all

5th January 2010, 11:49 AM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Ok, coming from someone not familiar at all with this particular model, but with some experience in fakes... yes, ageing metals is easy, which, coupled with less than ideal pics gets the job done. Given the quality of the actual pictures and my level of familiarity with the model I don't dare to pass a judgement about the finer features or the lack of the usual brass fitting around the "guard", but I would like to point out a detail from my experience with other pieces: using a sharp instrument (knife, cutter, etc...) to add some wear to a leather or wood scabbard is a common practise. Usually it's done hitting it in a semi-random way. Overdoing it it's also fairly common, and tends to be a hint for a closer look. In this case, the scabbard is covered by marks from a sharp instrument, quite extensively, and quite homogenously, included the side that would be worn facing the body (see pic). Again, let me be clear, I'm not passing any judgement. I can't: I haven't enough data. But, again, except in the most blissful cases, the signs that make us decide if an object is genuine or not are anything but clear and evident. More often than not, it's the accumulation of small details what makes us decide against a piece's authenticity. When there's enough lights in the board which are blinking red, we take a decision and call it "instinct", "nose" or "experience". It's normally well-applied accumulated knowledge, but it's sometimes hard to define or verbalize. I just wanted to raise a flag that I feel deserves to be up, a call for, maybe, a pause and a deeper thought, that 's all. Happy new year to all Attached Images

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4th January 2010, 02:49 PM	#1
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	I think original item. M1907 type I.

4th January 2010, 05:19 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hope you are correct, but how can one be sure without decent pics of the stamps? I, for one, cannot read the inscriptions at all.

4th January 2010, 05:40 PM	#3
klewang Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23	These are military issued? And were weapons like this standard issued with these kind of scabbards? The scabbard looks a bit like a modified and shortened klewang (the Dutch military ones) version. regards

4th January 2010, 07:06 PM	#4
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	These were officially issued by Zlatoust (most of them), Izhevsk (bow and arrow mark) and Artinsk russian weapons' factories.

4th January 2010, 07:08 PM	#5
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	2 Ariel: chinese and indian fakes are very bright and clean, and item's blade has original patina.

4th January 2010, 11:32 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Aging steel blade is a piece of cake, they do it all the time. You might be 100% right, but - no disrespect ! - I want to see the markings. One thing is already making my antennae twitch: no markings on the upper scabbard fitting. If I were the owner, I'd send good pics to a russian forum: some of these guys are incredibly knowledgeable and frightfully paranoid ( from daily exposure to bitter reality).