Were sabres used effectively in U.S. Civil War?

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Glen!!!! Your files are a virtual Smithsonian of valuable material on sword history, thank you for sharing these. Also, thank you for sharing the link to the thread from 2002, with our friends Don Nelson and Scott Bubar, both of whom we lost in 2004. They are sincerely missed, and it makes me happy that here they have joined us again for yet another discussion.

That is a truly fascinating 'Patton' and it would be great to learn more about which unit or period this was from. Also, had never heard of the Peking Horse Marines, but clearly they are using 'Pattons'! This is exactly the kind of stuff I always hope for when I post, truly key information that adds to the subject being discussed, and expanding the collective knowledge at hand.

Interesting note on the guy dropping out of a Huey in Nam with a sabre.....I would guess purely a case of props, much in the manner of Robert Duvall in character in "Apocolypse Now" wearing the U.S. cavalry brim ...after all, these were 'Air Cavalry' and there were many cases of these guys carrying the hubris in thier own personal ways.

Jean's notes are very much fun to follow, and miss him as well, hopefully one day he will be posting again, and I wish him well with matters he is handling.

All very best wishes to you and everyone for a wonderful new year!

Jim

[Hotspur]

The stenciled sword for an airborne LT name reads Morehouse. That example had been on a dealer site for a few years. I somehow don't think it belonged to David Morehouse (Psychic Warrior) but that might make sense as well because of his early military experience as the leader of an army ranger unit (later than any SE Asia activities we know of). That would be a pretty late use and attribution but the likelyhood of it being his is slim.

There is a good amount online about the horse marines and their last actions at the dawn of WWII. Seemingly serious about drilling with their Pattons and ponies, there are also other examples of later 20th century cavalry exercise. Pershing accounts of the campaign to Mexico may also relate troop use of the 1906 rebirth of the civil war light cavalry saber.

Cheers

GC

[Dmitry]

One of your pictures shows the Prussian officers sharpening the blades of their swords against the steps of the French embassy, a purely symbolic gesture.

[Lee]

A most interesting thread. Early on in my sword collecting, I was told that many of the US military swords had been deliberately blunted before being sold as surplus. Is this just an unfounded speculation?

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Lee

A most interesting thread. Early on in my sword collecting, I was told that many of the US military swords had been deliberately blunted before being sold as surplus. Is this just an unfounded speculation?

Not true, imho. Few were sharpened to begin with.
In fact, the only sabers to retain their razor-sharp edge en masse are the Indian tulwars.

[Jim McDougall]

"...The 'Pershing Expedition' had hardly begin its operations into Mexico when the M1913 saber was declared excess weight and placed in storage in Columbus (N.M.) ".
"The Last Bright Blades" , Joseph William Turner, 1982, p.33

Apparantly the cavalry troopers in the Philippines and during the Spanish American War carried a M1892 .38 Cal. Colt revolver and a M1860 light cavalry sabre worn on the olive drab canvas 'Mills' belts wuth ammuniition.

Turner (op.cit. p.9) also notes that by 1904, the additional cavalry regiments approved by congress in 1901, resulted in the request for manufacture of new equipment, including sabres. The "...existing supply of old Civil War sabres was found wanting and on November 7, 1904 a contract was let to the Ames Sword Co. of Chicopee, Massachusetts".

These would be the M1906 pattern swords, which were simply cosmetically changed versions of the M1860, with an iron rather than brass hilt. There are some extremely rare prototypes termed 1905-06 experimental which do have some variation, but did not become production.

While the M1913 was produced through the LF&C contract of 1918, it really never saw combat (despite certain somewhat apocryphal accounts of its presence in WWI, probably at the whim of commanding officers). Its last known use was in the shameful action against the Veterans protest in 1932, though was not actually applied despite being wielded against unarmed crowds.

It seems almost ironic that there was still a little known variation of the sword produced in 1931. It was known as the Rock Island Arsenal M2, though obviously it was never produced in any number.

The order to discontinue the use of the sabre was by order of the Adjutant General Office on April 18,1934 (474.71, 3-15-34) , and in looking at the order item # 3 simply states that sabres on hand will be stored pending further instruction ("The Rock Island Arsenal M2: Americas Last Cavalry Sabre", Lt. C.W.T. Cooper,Gun Report, Vol. XXVIII, Dec.1972, p.20).

I was hoping that perhaps here might be some note pertaining to dulling blades if such order had existed, possibly if such order existed. Since the note, pending further instructions, existed, possibly subsequent orders were issued.
In the story about General Patton, the stalwart horse soldier, where it is said, "...the saddest moment in his life came when he stood at attention, weeping, as his cavalry regiment marched past to stack thier sabres for the last time"....it seems that accounts of this event suggest that it was during WWII ("The Long Gray Line", Atkinson, p.58 ; "Blood Rites", B. Ehrenreich, p.152), and that would indicate the sabres remained in use in some cases until then.

Much as the apocryphal accounts of swords being deliberately left dull to avoid cleaving into bone in the Indian wars period, and the stories about them being left dull during the Civil War to prevent harming the soldiers themselves and thier horses, it seems doubtful they would have been dulled as put into storage..which doesnt seem to have been largely the case.
By the time of WWII, it seems most of the stores of M1913's had been sent to Australia for conversion into machetes or sent for fabrication of trench knives (known as 'Anderson stilettos' for the manufacturing firm). These were apparantly made with the blade alone, each blade sectioned into three for the dagger blades.

I would be inclined to believe that swords produced were probably not sharpened to razor edge until actually issued or in use, and that the 'factory' edge probably was relatively dull.

It really is an interesting aspect, and I'd very much like to know if anyone knows of actual orders to dull blades, also when was the Patton event when the final stacking of swords took place.

All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

Happy New Year to all.

Jim, I have owned many and still own some, of the several types of Sabers and Swords used by the US and Spain, during the SAW and the CW. Not one of them was sharp.

BTW; no US Cavalry ever set foot on the Philippines _during_ the SAW.

AFAIK, after ther debacle at Santiago/Cavite and the destruction of Montojo's and Cervera's Fleets, there only was a mock artillery battle in Manila, a sham in order to give control of the city to US Troops rather than to Aguinaldo's rebels, whom the Spanish believed would massacre the residents. Again, AFAIK, threre were no direct confrontations between the US and Spanish Forces.

While Montojo's fleet was destroyed, Philippines passed into US Hands only after being effectively sold to the US at the Treaty Of Paris.

Perhaps they were used afterward, during the US-Philippines War ..?

Best

M



Thanks Manolo, I hadnt noticed I had interpolated the Philippines with the reference to SAW trooper.
Can you say more on which action in Luzon the reference to cavalry charge with sabre in 1906 would refer to?

Best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by celtan

Perhaps they were used afterward, during the US-Philippines War ..?

Best

M

This little puppy did more for the Americans in the Philippine jungle than any sword I know of.

My pride and joy -

[celtan]

That was in 1942, under Lt. Edwin P. Ramsey. The 26th Cavalry "Philippine Scouts" engaged Japanese Infantry at Morong, in the Island of Luzon. They had already seen cavalry combat against the Japanese at Lingayen Gulf in 1941.

Originally Posted by celtan

Happy New Year to all.

Jim, I have owned many and still own some, of the several types of Sabers and Swords used by the US and Spain, during the SAW and the CW. Not one of them was sharp.

BTW; no US Cavalry ever set foot on the Philippines _during_ the SAW.

AFAIK, after ther debacle at Santiago/Cavite and the destruction of Montojo's and Cervera's Fleets, there only was a mock artillery battle in Manila, a sham in order to give control of the city to US Troops rather than to Aguinaldo's rebels, whom the Spanish believed would massacre the residents. Again, AFAIK, threre were no direct confrontations between the US and Spanish Forces.

While Montojo's fleet was destroyed, Philippines passed into US Hands only after being effectively sold to the US at the Treaty Of Paris.

Perhaps they were used afterward, during the US-Philippines War ..?

Best

M



Thanks Manolo, I hadnt noticed I had interpolated the Philippines with the reference to SAW trooper.
Can you say more on which action in Luzon the reference to cavalry charge with sabre in 1906 would refer to?

Best regards,
Jim