Were sabres used effectively in U.S. Civil War?

kronckew · 31st December 2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The last use of the cavalry sabre in combat it seems was in Luzon, in the Philippines in 1906, and the swords used were appararantly surplus sabres from the Civil War...

i assume you mean the last US use, as i've read an account of a british cavalry unit in the early days of WWI that came on a unit of german lancers and charged and engaged them with the sword, and drove them off, and then pursued them until they came upon a single strand of barbed wire a farmer had erected to keep the cows out of his garden, by the time they had gotten around it the germans had escaped. appears the lancers were raw recruits and had as yet received minimal training.

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2009, 07:07 PM

Thanks Kronckew

yup I meant U.S. and I think there are probably a lot of 'last' charges depending on who's telling the story. Thats a great story about the German 'uhlans' in WWI, and indeed it seems even stranger with this truly anachronistic weapon ( then there will inevetably be the tales of the Polish lancers charging German tanks in WWII....primarily of course propoganda oriented).

Returning to the Civil War, the Union, clearly following certain European military traditions, decided to transform a couple of cavalry regiments into 'lancer' units. After the discussion already covering the miserable application of training with the sword, one can imagine the diastrous folly of this brainstorm. If I recall, I think it was Rush's lancers and I believe these were Pennsylvania units. While the use of the lance does not seem to have worked out too well, the units did serve with commensurate valor in a more conventional sense. I do not recall more detail, but the point was simply the anachronism element.

The lancer units that I believe did prove successful well into the 20th century were the famed 'Bengal Lancers' and a number of similar lancer units in the colorful native cavalry of the British Raj. I recall, as I have mentioned a number of times over the years, that I once visited an elderly British officer who had written an autobiography titled "Last of the Bengal Lancers".
He was Brigadier Francis Ingall who had served in Northwest Frontier Province in the early 1930's attached to I believe the 13th Bengal Lancers or its amalgamated counterpart. It was fantastic listening to him describe the 'hell for leather' charge on the plains in the Khyber regions, which was another of those 'last' cavalry charges (there was actually yet another I believe in Toungoo, Burma with British cavalry against Japanese in 1942).

Brigadier Ingall virtually lit up as he described this gallant charge, and showed me the huge M1912 officers cavalry sabre he had carried. In a poignant moment he glanced lovingly toward the fireplace, above which on a place of honor, was a portrait of his charger, "Eagerheart".
It was a day and a visit I will never forget.

All very best regards,
Jim

P.S. Kronckew, beautiful dogs, and the kepi looks good on ya, suh!!!

Hotspur · 1st January 2010, 09:09 PM

I could dig around for some old threads but they do relate some practical notes on keeping swords sharp in the 19th century. In particular, some of the older SFI threads regarding this very topic. Files issued for keeping edges sharp, being gentle during insertion in metal scabbards, not using your sword for spitting meat over the fire, stuff like that.

As to last American use of swords, one example makes me wonder a bit about this particular Patton. Also in my files are pictures of the Peking horse marines, with their nickeled baskets. There was also a note over on Blade Forums somewhere about an American officer in Viet Nam dropping from a huey with sabre in hand (I have no hard reference for that, nor the sword type). I'll see if I can dig up that Boer War sharpening image as well. Well, my files sure are in a state of mess right now but here also some Prussians sharpening on some stone steps. Ok, here are the Boer boys.

Here is the old Don Nelson Thread
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5896

Jean's notes are always fun to follow.

Cheers and Happy New Year

GC

Jim McDougall · 1st January 2010, 09:41 PM

Outstanding Glen!!!! Your files are a virtual Smithsonian of valuable material on sword history, thank you for sharing these. Also, thank you for sharing the link to the thread from 2002, with our friends Don Nelson and Scott Bubar, both of whom we lost in 2004. They are sincerely missed, and it makes me happy that here they have joined us again for yet another discussion.

That is a truly fascinating 'Patton' and it would be great to learn more about which unit or period this was from. Also, had never heard of the Peking Horse Marines, but clearly they are using 'Pattons'! This is exactly the kind of stuff I always hope for when I post, truly key information that adds to the subject being discussed, and expanding the collective knowledge at hand.

Interesting note on the guy dropping out of a Huey in Nam with a sabre.....I would guess purely a case of props, much in the manner of Robert Duvall in character in "Apocolypse Now" wearing the U.S. cavalry brim ...after all, these were 'Air Cavalry' and there were many cases of these guys carrying the hubris in thier own personal ways.

Jean's notes are very much fun to follow, and miss him as well, hopefully one day he will be posting again, and I wish him well with matters he is handling.

All very best wishes to you and everyone for a wonderful new year!

Jim

Hotspur · 1st January 2010, 10:36 PM

The stenciled sword for an airborne LT name reads Morehouse. That example had been on a dealer site for a few years. I somehow don't think it belonged to David Morehouse (Psychic Warrior) but that might make sense as well because of his early military experience as the leader of an army ranger unit (later than any SE Asia activities we know of). That would be a pretty late use and attribution but the likelyhood of it being his is slim.

There is a good amount online about the horse marines and their last actions at the dawn of WWII. Seemingly serious about drilling with their Pattons and ponies, there are also other examples of later 20th century cavalry exercise. Pershing accounts of the campaign to Mexico may also relate troop use of the 1906 rebirth of the civil war light cavalry saber.

Cheers

GC

Dmitry · 1st January 2010, 11:56 PM

One of your pictures shows the Prussian officers sharpening the blades of their swords against the steps of the French embassy, a purely symbolic gesture.

Lee · 2nd January 2010, 08:53 AM

A most interesting thread. Early on in my sword collecting, I was told that many of the US military swords had been deliberately blunted before being sold as surplus. Is this just an unfounded speculation?

1st January 2010, 09:09 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	I could dig around for some old threads but they do relate some practical notes on keeping swords sharp in the 19th century. In particular, some of the older SFI threads regarding this very topic. Files issued for keeping edges sharp, being gentle during insertion in metal scabbards, not using your sword for spitting meat over the fire, stuff like that. As to last American use of swords, one example makes me wonder a bit about this particular Patton. Also in my files are pictures of the Peking horse marines, with their nickeled baskets. There was also a note over on Blade Forums somewhere about an American officer in Viet Nam dropping from a huey with sabre in hand (I have no hard reference for that, nor the sword type). I'll see if I can dig up that Boer War sharpening image as well. Well, my files sure are in a state of mess right now but here also some Prussians sharpening on some stone steps. Ok, here are the Boer boys. Here is the old Don Nelson Thread http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5896 Jean's notes are always fun to follow. Cheers and Happy New Year GC Attached Images

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31st December 2009, 07:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Thanks Kronckew yup I meant U.S. and I think there are probably a lot of 'last' charges depending on who's telling the story. Thats a great story about the German 'uhlans' in WWI, and indeed it seems even stranger with this truly anachronistic weapon ( then there will inevetably be the tales of the Polish lancers charging German tanks in WWII....primarily of course propoganda oriented). Returning to the Civil War, the Union, clearly following certain European military traditions, decided to transform a couple of cavalry regiments into 'lancer' units. After the discussion already covering the miserable application of training with the sword, one can imagine the diastrous folly of this brainstorm. If I recall, I think it was Rush's lancers and I believe these were Pennsylvania units. While the use of the lance does not seem to have worked out too well, the units did serve with commensurate valor in a more conventional sense. I do not recall more detail, but the point was simply the anachronism element. The lancer units that I believe did prove successful well into the 20th century were the famed 'Bengal Lancers' and a number of similar lancer units in the colorful native cavalry of the British Raj. I recall, as I have mentioned a number of times over the years, that I once visited an elderly British officer who had written an autobiography titled "Last of the Bengal Lancers". He was Brigadier Francis Ingall who had served in Northwest Frontier Province in the early 1930's attached to I believe the 13th Bengal Lancers or its amalgamated counterpart. It was fantastic listening to him describe the 'hell for leather' charge on the plains in the Khyber regions, which was another of those 'last' cavalry charges (there was actually yet another I believe in Toungoo, Burma with British cavalry against Japanese in 1942). Brigadier Ingall virtually lit up as he described this gallant charge, and showed me the huge M1912 officers cavalry sabre he had carried. In a poignant moment he glanced lovingly toward the fireplace, above which on a place of honor, was a portrait of his charger, "Eagerheart". It was a day and a visit I will never forget. All very best regards, Jim P.S. Kronckew, beautiful dogs, and the kepi looks good on ya, suh!!!

1st January 2010, 09:41 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Outstanding Glen!!!! Your files are a virtual Smithsonian of valuable material on sword history, thank you for sharing these. Also, thank you for sharing the link to the thread from 2002, with our friends Don Nelson and Scott Bubar, both of whom we lost in 2004. They are sincerely missed, and it makes me happy that here they have joined us again for yet another discussion. That is a truly fascinating 'Patton' and it would be great to learn more about which unit or period this was from. Also, had never heard of the Peking Horse Marines, but clearly they are using 'Pattons'! This is exactly the kind of stuff I always hope for when I post, truly key information that adds to the subject being discussed, and expanding the collective knowledge at hand. Interesting note on the guy dropping out of a Huey in Nam with a sabre.....I would guess purely a case of props, much in the manner of Robert Duvall in character in "Apocolypse Now" wearing the U.S. cavalry brim ...after all, these were 'Air Cavalry' and there were many cases of these guys carrying the hubris in thier own personal ways. Jean's notes are very much fun to follow, and miss him as well, hopefully one day he will be posting again, and I wish him well with matters he is handling. All very best wishes to you and everyone for a wonderful new year! Jim

1st January 2010, 10:36 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	The stenciled sword for an airborne LT name reads Morehouse. That example had been on a dealer site for a few years. I somehow don't think it belonged to David Morehouse (Psychic Warrior) but that might make sense as well because of his early military experience as the leader of an army ranger unit (later than any SE Asia activities we know of). That would be a pretty late use and attribution but the likelyhood of it being his is slim. There is a good amount online about the horse marines and their last actions at the dawn of WWII. Seemingly serious about drilling with their Pattons and ponies, there are also other examples of later 20th century cavalry exercise. Pershing accounts of the campaign to Mexico may also relate troop use of the 1906 rebirth of the civil war light cavalry saber. Cheers GC

1st January 2010, 11:56 PM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	One of your pictures shows the Prussian officers sharpening the blades of their swords against the steps of the French embassy, a purely symbolic gesture.

2nd January 2010, 08:53 AM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	A most interesting thread. Early on in my sword collecting, I was told that many of the US military swords had been deliberately blunted before being sold as surplus. Is this just an unfounded speculation?