FRINGIA

Emanuel · 28th November 2009, 10:13 PM

Great discussion everyone.

Another point to throw in - The French also made their first expeditions to India in the mid-16th and early-17th centuries. While mostly localized on the Malabar coast, they did have connections to the rest of India. Aurangzeb had a French doctor, Francois Bernier. French presence could very well have given rise to the Fringia term in somewhat more recent memory than the crusades

.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2009, 01:28 AM

Indeed a very good point Emanuel! Hey, its great to see you posting here!!!
Its been a while my friend!!!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 30th November 2009, 07:07 PM

thesis keeping me busy Jim. I shamefully don't keep in touch but I still follow what goes on the forum.

Drive safe!
Emanuel

ward · 6th December 2009, 05:49 AM

Fringia is on a lot of saber blades spelled different ways.
I asked Oliver Pinchot about it and he wrote

"You can pretty well shave with Occam's Razor on this one. The appearance of the word FRINGIA, variously spelled though it is, almost certainly refers to Thuringia in Saxony for two reasons:
1) the iron ore mined there during the Middle Ages was reputed to be of very high quality, in fact it is still famous for it; it supplied the major arms-making center at Suhl.
2) it is common for the letters T and TH to shift to an F in many languages and dialects. So for Thuringia to become Fringia was a pretty short walk, orthographically speaking.".

Ward

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2009, 04:55 AM

Well there ya have it!!!! Excellent Ward, and very well put by Oliver, in his very distinct and wry humor!

He has always had a brilliant way of putting things that melds superb scholarship with devious wit, leaving you with a permanent understanding of the subject, that makes you smile every time you remember it. A scholar extraordinaire.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 20th December 2009, 07:44 AM

Personally I really do not believe the word Fringia refers to a specific area in Central or Western Europe. To me, it simply means a sword with a Western European blade (and by Western European, everything West of Vienna is meant).

In Bulgarian folk songs it is mentioned as frengia, pronounced fraen-gee-ya, such as:

Тънка пушка бойлия (Thin rifle boyliya)
Остря сабя френгия (Sharp sword frengia)

In Dr. Elgood's book, on page 49, we find another evidence that for the Ottomans, Frengi was just an adjective denoting European origin:

Quote:

In a list of arms, dated 1009/1600, from a Vizier's cebe-hane, we find, among 75 tufenkler, the following types: [... ], Frengi (from Western Europe), [...].

So to me the meaning of Fringia, or Frengia is just "from Western Europe", in this case a sabre. Similar to how a "damaskiniya" referred to a sword with a wootz blade.

Regards,
Teodor

ariel · 20th December 2009, 06:09 PM

I am with Teodor here.

First, if Thuringia gave birth to Fringia, what happened to the "u" sound?

Second, transmutation of Th to F usually goes from W.European to Slavic languages. As an example ( just to make Teodor happy), Theodor became Fyodor in Russian. I thought for quite some time about a reverse move, and could not find an example. Anyone?

Third, the Fringia blades came from different places in Europe; why would ( for example)Italians be influenced by a German locality? German blades in India gave birth to a curved saber called Alemani; but the name is French in origin.

A crazy thought: was Francia ( another popular label) just a result of a mis-spelling, whereby the horizontal tick in G was missed and the letter became C ? Either Western masters were not exactly literate or the Eastern ones just copied the mark without understanding of the meaning ... Kind of like me re-drawing Chinese hieroglyphs :-)

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28th November 2009, 10:13 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Great discussion everyone. Another point to throw in - The French also made their first expeditions to India in the mid-16th and early-17th centuries. While mostly localized on the Malabar coast, they did have connections to the rest of India. Aurangzeb had a French doctor, Francois Bernier. French presence could very well have given rise to the Fringia term in somewhat more recent memory than the crusades . Emanuel

29th November 2009, 01:28 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Indeed a very good point Emanuel! Hey, its great to see you posting here!!! Its been a while my friend!!! All the best, Jim

30th November 2009, 07:07 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	thesis keeping me busy Jim. I shamefully don't keep in touch but I still follow what goes on the forum. Drive safe! Emanuel

6th December 2009, 05:49 AM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Fringia is on a lot of saber blades spelled different ways. I asked Oliver Pinchot about it and he wrote "You can pretty well shave with Occam's Razor on this one. The appearance of the word FRINGIA, variously spelled though it is, almost certainly refers to Thuringia in Saxony for two reasons: 1) the iron ore mined there during the Middle Ages was reputed to be of very high quality, in fact it is still famous for it; it supplied the major arms-making center at Suhl. 2) it is common for the letters T and TH to shift to an F in many languages and dialects. So for Thuringia to become Fringia was a pretty short walk, orthographically speaking.". Ward

11th December 2009, 04:55 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Well there ya have it!!!! Excellent Ward, and very well put by Oliver, in his very distinct and wry humor! He has always had a brilliant way of putting things that melds superb scholarship with devious wit, leaving you with a permanent understanding of the subject, that makes you smile every time you remember it. A scholar extraordinaire. All best regards, Jim

20th December 2009, 06:09 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am with Teodor here. First, if Thuringia gave birth to Fringia, what happened to the "u" sound? Second, transmutation of Th to F usually goes from W.European to Slavic languages. As an example ( just to make Teodor happy), Theodor became Fyodor in Russian. I thought for quite some time about a reverse move, and could not find an example. Anyone? Third, the Fringia blades came from different places in Europe; why would ( for example)Italians be influenced by a German locality? German blades in India gave birth to a curved saber called Alemani; but the name is French in origin. A crazy thought: was Francia ( another popular label) just a result of a mis-spelling, whereby the horizontal tick in G was missed and the letter became C ? Either Western masters were not exactly literate or the Eastern ones just copied the mark without understanding of the meaning ... Kind of like me re-drawing Chinese hieroglyphs :-)