Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

Rivkin · 16th May 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

The scales on the handle are made of horn, and to some extent resemble those on kindjals from the Caucasus, however the blade has a central rib rather than a fuller and overall this does not look like anything from the Caucasus I have personally seen.

Central rib is characteristic to kidnjals from Georgia, usually relatively late ones - 1850 and later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

You can perhaps see the obvious differences.
So here is the question: does anybody know anything about these weapons? They most deffinitely came from Bulgaria. As of their age, nothing is certain. One needs to keep in mind that Caucasus kindjals arrived in Bulgarian lands with Muslim Circassians that the Ottomans relocated from the Caucasus (I believe nowadays Chechnya and Dagestan).

No. Circassians are from Circassia, Kabarda, Adighe (the lands named after their individual tribes) and so on.

My ignorant opinion would be - one of the kamas (last photo) shown are actually much closer to turkish kindjals than to circassian ones (many red dots - coralls? on the hilt). The top kindjal is also more southern then circassian, and may be even more of a georgian/armenian type. In light of this I would think that probably kindjals came to Bolgaria with turks and turkish trade rather than with circassians alone. That explains the range of sizes and styles we see - some are more like turkish, some are like georgian, some can be circassian.

Concerning the balkan kama with many fullers - I'm lost here - have no idea where it comes from.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2005, 05:29 PM

Teodor,
Excellent thread! Thank you for posting this. You're right, Bulgaria is seldom described specifically and often falls under the 'Ottoman' umbrella, as do many 'Balkan' weapons. This a a great idea to get specifics that may help differentiate, like the example with the circle and dot motif on the grips.
This particular motif seems to occur often on Afghan weapons. One that comes to mind is the folding lohar discussed a number of times in recent years.
Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 17th May 2005, 12:09 AM

Rivkin, you are right: kindjals came to Bulgaria before the Circassians with trade, and also let us not forget that some came not via the Ottomans, but via the Russians in the Russo-Turkish wars. However, the number of kindjals in Bulgaria certainly increased after Circassians were relocated to the Balkans.
I absolutely agree with your observations on the kindjals in the last photo I posted: there is a big variety among them and my guess is that this was the purpose of the display: the curators wanted to show together as many different knidjal types as possible. To be honest with you, the top one that looks Armenian as you point out (or Persian?), the one with the central fuller and the koftgiri on blade, is not one you would find easily in Bulgaria. The vast majority of what I have seen owned by collectors, offered for sale or in museums are kindjals with an off-centered fuller and very little in terms of decoration, and the already mentioned smaller kamas with a hilt encased in brass that are typical Bulgarian.
Interesting discussion so far, thanks to all participants, hopefully we will get some more clues about the three mysterious weapons I started the thread with.

erlikhan · 17th May 2005, 09:49 PM

interesting. i am not sure if this type can be a Bulgaria or Balkan specialty, as i know similar ones currently offered by a seller from a western Anadolu town in Turkey. close to Izmir. They took my attention because of your post, and asked from where he found these kamas, and replied "from local villages". But I agree especially the upper one is not in the classical known Turkish kama hilt form. it is nearly completely same with yours. could be a regular Russian army kama, brought back by a Turkish soldier after 1877 war?

TVV · 17th May 2005, 11:24 PM

I highly doubt it is Russian. Here is another example, which belongs to a different friend of mine, and which he inherited from his grandfather:

I do not know if this type of kamas are Balkan or Bulgarian, but they are relatively late, I would say from the end of the 19th century and quite abundant in Bulgaria. How a few of them could end up near Izmir I do not know: trade, wars, and that can be not only the Russo-Turkish wars, but also the Balkan War, and in WWI there were Turkish troops passing trhough Bulgaria as allies too. Let us not forget that unfortunately there have been many Turkish immigrants to Turkey from Bulgaria throughout the years, from 1878 to the 1980s. Izmir has always been a big city and an important port in the area and certainly the area around it would have attracted people seeking jobs and dwellings.

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 02:39 AM

EXTREMELY interesting and informative posting.
I have to admit to being initially confused with the spelling of "kama" as opposed to "qama", with the former also being a Chinese weapon similar to a lohar, usually used in pairs, unless I'm mistaken.
TVV, your observation about the central ridge vs fullers and the unique guard on the one kama were both well made.....I've seen the steel guard that's folded back into the blade itself before, I believe on some late Roman era pieces dating to about 400 AD.
This is one of those threads that I'll be following closely and hoping to see more unfold, as regions like this that have been closed off or inaccessable to most of us for most of our lifetime have been all but forgotten and are just now coming into the light.
As to the "dot within a circle" motif, that has to be the single most discussed blade/hilt decoration ever by now.... I just did a quick walk-through of my own pieces and found it on the blades of my Pakistani fighting axes, the bronzework on my chora and khyber knife, on the blade of my Persian axe/American Indian tomohawk, on the bone hilt and brass haft of my lohar and on the bone hilt of my knife from Crete (somehow, calling it a Cretan knife just feels wrong, even if it is spelled different than cretin

) and I clearly remember it on several pieces from elsewhere in India in the past.
I suspect it's just because it's one of the easiest designs to punch or burn, needing only a steel or metal tube and a punch or nail, as opposed to other designs that require more complex tools to incorporate.
Mike

erlikhan · 18th May 2005, 09:19 AM

Yes. Can reach Izmir villages by many ways. Still,what I think is, brass hilted samples look similar, and mass produced to me. About the one of your friend like Samakov museum, I agree it belongs to an older era for sure. I havent seen similar samples here. The fullers seem not to come together some distance before the tip as it is supposed to be. Could be shortened?

17th May 2005, 09:49 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	interesting. i am not sure if this type can be a Bulgaria or Balkan specialty, as i know similar ones currently offered by a seller from a western Anadolu town in Turkey. close to Izmir. They took my attention because of your post, and asked from where he found these kamas, and replied "from local villages". But I agree especially the upper one is not in the classical known Turkish kama hilt form. it is nearly completely same with yours. could be a regular Russian army kama, brought back by a Turkish soldier after 1877 war? Attached Images

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16th May 2005, 05:29 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Teodor, Excellent thread! Thank you for posting this. You're right, Bulgaria is seldom described specifically and often falls under the 'Ottoman' umbrella, as do many 'Balkan' weapons. This a a great idea to get specifics that may help differentiate, like the example with the circle and dot motif on the grips. This particular motif seems to occur often on Afghan weapons. One that comes to mind is the folding lohar discussed a number of times in recent years. Best regards, Jim

17th May 2005, 12:09 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Rivkin, you are right: kindjals came to Bulgaria before the Circassians with trade, and also let us not forget that some came not via the Ottomans, but via the Russians in the Russo-Turkish wars. However, the number of kindjals in Bulgaria certainly increased after Circassians were relocated to the Balkans. I absolutely agree with your observations on the kindjals in the last photo I posted: there is a big variety among them and my guess is that this was the purpose of the display: the curators wanted to show together as many different knidjal types as possible. To be honest with you, the top one that looks Armenian as you point out (or Persian?), the one with the central fuller and the koftgiri on blade, is not one you would find easily in Bulgaria. The vast majority of what I have seen owned by collectors, offered for sale or in museums are kindjals with an off-centered fuller and very little in terms of decoration, and the already mentioned smaller kamas with a hilt encased in brass that are typical Bulgarian. Interesting discussion so far, thanks to all participants, hopefully we will get some more clues about the three mysterious weapons I started the thread with.

17th May 2005, 11:24 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	I highly doubt it is Russian. Here is another example, which belongs to a different friend of mine, and which he inherited from his grandfather: I do not know if this type of kamas are Balkan or Bulgarian, but they are relatively late, I would say from the end of the 19th century and quite abundant in Bulgaria. How a few of them could end up near Izmir I do not know: trade, wars, and that can be not only the Russo-Turkish wars, but also the Balkan War, and in WWI there were Turkish troops passing trhough Bulgaria as allies too. Let us not forget that unfortunately there have been many Turkish immigrants to Turkey from Bulgaria throughout the years, from 1878 to the 1980s. Izmir has always been a big city and an important port in the area and certainly the area around it would have attracted people seeking jobs and dwellings.

18th May 2005, 02:39 AM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	EXTREMELY interesting and informative posting. I have to admit to being initially confused with the spelling of "kama" as opposed to "qama", with the former also being a Chinese weapon similar to a lohar, usually used in pairs, unless I'm mistaken. TVV, your observation about the central ridge vs fullers and the unique guard on the one kama were both well made.....I've seen the steel guard that's folded back into the blade itself before, I believe on some late Roman era pieces dating to about 400 AD. This is one of those threads that I'll be following closely and hoping to see more unfold, as regions like this that have been closed off or inaccessable to most of us for most of our lifetime have been all but forgotten and are just now coming into the light. As to the "dot within a circle" motif, that has to be the single most discussed blade/hilt decoration ever by now.... I just did a quick walk-through of my own pieces and found it on the blades of my Pakistani fighting axes, the bronzework on my chora and khyber knife, on the blade of my Persian axe/American Indian tomohawk, on the bone hilt and brass haft of my lohar and on the bone hilt of my knife from Crete (somehow, calling it a Cretan knife just feels wrong, even if it is spelled different than cretin ) and I clearly remember it on several pieces from elsewhere in India in the past. I suspect it's just because it's one of the easiest designs to punch or burn, needing only a steel or metal tube and a punch or nail, as opposed to other designs that require more complex tools to incorporate. Mike

18th May 2005, 09:19 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes. Can reach Izmir villages by many ways. Still,what I think is, brass hilted samples look similar, and mass produced to me. About the one of your friend like Samakov museum, I agree it belongs to an older era for sure. I havent seen similar samples here. The fullers seem not to come together some distance before the tip as it is supposed to be. Could be shortened?