Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence?

Sajen · 13th October 2009, 02:33 PM

Beautiful sword!

Lee · 14th October 2009, 03:58 PM

An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here.

----- Mr. Domenech's Comments -----

I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market.

I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course.

It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain.

I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration.
Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders.

If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation.

This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste.

It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C.

Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods.

In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece.

It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

fernando · 14th October 2009, 06:44 PM

Hi Cathey, welcome to the forum.
Concerning the description; who made it ? did it come with the sword ?
In other words, who has connected this piece to Cordoba?
San Roqe is naturally a misspell for San Roque.
You know there is (also) a (small) city called San Roque in Colombia? I know this is a fantasy, but there is silver in Colombia, men with hats, deer and eagles.
The dog in the hilt; the legend says that when São Roque was contaminated with the plague, he retired to the forest, and only survived because a dog brought him daily a piece of bread. In some countries this Saint is considered the patron of dogs.
I know this doesn't help much, and would like to know where that sword comes from.
Fernando

Cathey · 15th October 2009, 02:59 AM

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

Rick · 15th October 2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

Slightly coincidental .

Blade shape and the little Sun marks .

Small world .

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2009, 06:06 AM

Cathey, I wanted to thank you for posting this here, and for joining us!!!
This short sword which as agreed seems to be a hunting weapon with profound Hispano-Moresque presence is indeed a fascinating and enigmatic piece. It is not at all surprising that something this unusual will bring many interpretations and perceptions as seen by various individuals, as it is in essence, art.

When I first saw this piece, and saw the attribution to Argentina, my first thoughts were of similar items vaguely recalled, and particularly to me, the rounded choil at the back of the blade, which reminded me of that feature in varying degree in some Argentinean punals. It seems that this is seen on some Meditteranean dirks as well, along with the ferrule in variant form which joins the blade and the handle at the blade back.

The octagonal handle, and ferrule, which is somewhat columnar, also seemed to well correspond to Meditteranean dirks.

The pommel cap with capstan is a feature on these dirks and it seems some punal from Argentina, but it seems that wide variation and features derived from European examples have become hard to discern, except of course for the experts in these weapons.

Now understanding that the SAN RoqE is probably in reference to this key figure in the history of Spain, which seems to correspond to the theme of this weapon with the dog on the pommel cap, holding the chain in his mouth. As Fernando has noted, this dog image is important with reference to this Saint. The town of San Roque is in Andalusian Spain, in the province of Cadiz, very near Gibraltar, though it is unclear whether that is important as to the region the sword is from or the SAN RoqE is to the swords theme.

The double headed or Imperial eagle is key in Spanish history as pertains to the coat of arms of Charles I (Carlos I) 1519-1556, who was elected Holy Roman Emperor in 1519, and I understand is considered the first Spanish king after the Reconquista. I am sure that is probably not entirely correct, but the salient point is his use of the Byzantine eagle.

This short sword I would suggest with reviewed information, may be a commemorative weapon fashioned for presentation to an esteemed figure as a diplomatic gift, as hunting type weapons often were. The San Roque theme along with neoclassic characteristics of the falcata,and Hispano-Moresque style as well as certain Meditteranean knife features seem to support this in some degree.

It does certainly seem of 19th century, and I would add even more to the conundrum by noting that Arab sa'ifs of the 18th and even into the early 20th century had these pommel connecting chains to quillon (while this is to the blade collar).

All best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 15th October 2009, 08:36 AM

Hi Cathey,

Jim McDougall has greatly flattered my superficial knowledge of "Criollo" (Creole) edged weapons by inviting my comments on this piece.

Before Jim made his kind invitation, I saw your post, but was reluctant to say anything about this piece because everything about is atypical of Argentina, indeed South America, but of course, proving this view would be more difficult than just saying so. However, given Abel Domenech's expert view, quoted in Lee's informative post, and Jim's aforementioned invitation, I have gained the encouragement needed to say something, but sadly can do little better than wholeheartedly agree with every word of Mr Domenech.

If at all I could make a small contribution, it would be by way of emphasizing Mr Domenech's words to the effect that all sorts of edged wares found their way to and were used in Sth America. So, whilst the ornate metal hilted and furnished knife fashioned from either discarded swords, bayonets or trade blades, by the end of the 19th century did become representative of the River Plate region, nevertheless these were by no means universal.

Cheers
Chris

14th October 2009, 03:58 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Concerning an Argentinean Origin An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here. ----- Mr. Domenech's Comments ----- I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market. I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course. It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain. I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration. Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders. If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation. This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste. It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C. Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods. In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece. It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

15th October 2009, 02:59 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence Hi Guys In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much. This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995. The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

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13th October 2009, 02:33 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	Beautiful sword!

14th October 2009, 06:44 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Cathey, welcome to the forum. Concerning the description; who made it ? did it come with the sword ? In other words, who has connected this piece to Cordoba? San Roqe is naturally a misspell for San Roque. You know there is (also) a (small) city called San Roque in Colombia? I know this is a fantasy, but there is silver in Colombia, men with hats, deer and eagles. The dog in the hilt; the legend says that when São Roque was contaminated with the plague, he retired to the forest, and only survived because a dog brought him daily a piece of bread. In some countries this Saint is considered the patron of dogs. I know this doesn't help much, and would like to know where that sword comes from. Fernando

15th October 2009, 06:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Cathey, I wanted to thank you for posting this here, and for joining us!!! This short sword which as agreed seems to be a hunting weapon with profound Hispano-Moresque presence is indeed a fascinating and enigmatic piece. It is not at all surprising that something this unusual will bring many interpretations and perceptions as seen by various individuals, as it is in essence, art. When I first saw this piece, and saw the attribution to Argentina, my first thoughts were of similar items vaguely recalled, and particularly to me, the rounded choil at the back of the blade, which reminded me of that feature in varying degree in some Argentinean punals. It seems that this is seen on some Meditteranean dirks as well, along with the ferrule in variant form which joins the blade and the handle at the blade back. The octagonal handle, and ferrule, which is somewhat columnar, also seemed to well correspond to Meditteranean dirks. The pommel cap with capstan is a feature on these dirks and it seems some punal from Argentina, but it seems that wide variation and features derived from European examples have become hard to discern, except of course for the experts in these weapons. Now understanding that the SAN RoqE is probably in reference to this key figure in the history of Spain, which seems to correspond to the theme of this weapon with the dog on the pommel cap, holding the chain in his mouth. As Fernando has noted, this dog image is important with reference to this Saint. The town of San Roque is in Andalusian Spain, in the province of Cadiz, very near Gibraltar, though it is unclear whether that is important as to the region the sword is from or the SAN RoqE is to the swords theme. The double headed or Imperial eagle is key in Spanish history as pertains to the coat of arms of Charles I (Carlos I) 1519-1556, who was elected Holy Roman Emperor in 1519, and I understand is considered the first Spanish king after the Reconquista. I am sure that is probably not entirely correct, but the salient point is his use of the Byzantine eagle. This short sword I would suggest with reviewed information, may be a commemorative weapon fashioned for presentation to an esteemed figure as a diplomatic gift, as hunting type weapons often were. The San Roque theme along with neoclassic characteristics of the falcata,and Hispano-Moresque style as well as certain Meditteranean knife features seem to support this in some degree. It does certainly seem of 19th century, and I would add even more to the conundrum by noting that Arab sa'ifs of the 18th and even into the early 20th century had these pommel connecting chains to quillon (while this is to the blade collar). All best regards, Jim

15th October 2009, 08:36 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Cathey, Jim McDougall has greatly flattered my superficial knowledge of "Criollo" (Creole) edged weapons by inviting my comments on this piece. Before Jim made his kind invitation, I saw your post, but was reluctant to say anything about this piece because everything about is atypical of Argentina, indeed South America, but of course, proving this view would be more difficult than just saying so. However, given Abel Domenech's expert view, quoted in Lee's informative post, and Jim's aforementioned invitation, I have gained the encouragement needed to say something, but sadly can do little better than wholeheartedly agree with every word of Mr Domenech. If at all I could make a small contribution, it would be by way of emphasizing Mr Domenech's words to the effect that all sorts of edged wares found their way to and were used in Sth America. So, whilst the ornate metal hilted and furnished knife fashioned from either discarded swords, bayonets or trade blades, by the end of the 19th century did become representative of the River Plate region, nevertheless these were by no means universal. Cheers Chris