European sword from XVII or XVIII c. - <?>

buendia · 15th September 2009, 10:17 PM

OK, now I know. It just required an appropriate leather glove and the "feeling" and grip of the sword completely changed. Bare hand is insufficient for this hilt. It feels somehow thin or too big and the thumb ring doesn`t feel good at all. With glove the sword becomes part of your hand. The grip gets ubelievably strong and comfortable. The sword becomes very fast and precise.

And it certainly can swish and slash. Such an inconspicuous blade. I fell in love.

buendia · 15th September 2009, 10:35 PM

A Senefelder - I would be grateful for that.
I decided to go through the photos I had saved and picked a few with some resemblances to my sword. The first comes from Stockholm museum and pictures XVII cent. swords for cut and thrust fighting (somewhere in the net is a very interesting photostory from the excursion of fencers and sword experts to the Museum.

The next sword M1685 was for Swedish infantry.

The third was just labelled 1680 - Northern Europe.

All the traces go to Sweden just as it was suggested before. I didn`t suspect that it could be Swedish sword!

kisak · 17th September 2009, 12:31 AM

While a sword of this style could have been sued by a Swede, or perhaps even made here, it is far from certain that such is the case. The impression I've gotten is that this general style saw use in both German areas and the Netherlands (if not elsewhere as well), in addition to Sweden.

buendia · 18th September 2009, 10:24 AM

Thank you for your remark kisak - I had a hard time trying to find or prove its Swedish/North European origin. I didn`t do much progress in that topic, but I have found out that the Swedes did like the Cross of Triumph:

What is the correct sword position of looking at a maker`s mark?
Looking at the sword this way (actually it`s on the other side of the blade):

The mark is in this position:

So I have checked what does an inversed cross mean. It`s st. Peter`s Cross - a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ. It makes sense to me - victory but bitter, when you think about. I don`t know if such an interpretation is possible, but it`s interesting.

buendia · 18th September 2009, 10:50 AM

I have found a picture of makers` marks, but no idea where from?

The 3 dots on each side of the crescent from my blade are "borrowed" from
the marks on this picture!
Maybe another symbolic mixture theory?
So what`s the name for the marks?

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2009, 05:54 PM

I very much like the way you are thinking Buendia! You take a systematic approach to examining not just the marking, but the style and elements of the sword overall.

As noted, these swords with the thumbrings seem to have been mostly of 17th century, and used from Austria to North Europe and the Low Countries. It must be remembered that these times and regions were of course in a constant state of geopolitical flux, and warfare and trade throughout were a continually present dynamic.

Also, it is important to note that Solingen was a powerful industrial and merchandising machine in the production of sword blades, who duplicated the blades of many other centers. It would have been fruitless for any other center to try to duplicate a 'Solingen' blade, as Solingen blades were actually so often designed to impersonate blades of other countries.

Probably the most likely explanation for this marking, which is as you have noticed, is that it is actually a composite marking, probably applied to the blade after its production. As previously mentioned, it cannot be associated with a certain maker or city as it is an interpretation of known symbols or devices used either in amuletic or imbued quality sense.

The arch with triple dots at either end is of course from the 'Genoan' or 'sickle' mark usually occurring in opposed pair with dentated semi circle.
Its use in variation became known later as it was copied by many trade centers and blade makers even in native colonial areas.

The cross, again as you have well noted, describing the cross and orb, which was indeed used by a number of European swordsmiths, particularly in Solingen, was most likely used in talismanic sense. The cross is very much present in similar configuration occasionally with other amuletic devices as an invocation calling for divine protection and strength.

These were times of profound religious piety as well as of deep superstition and folklore, so the application of these symbols would seem well in place
applied to a mans sword, with which he defended his faith, his honor and his very life.

Your very astute interpretation of St. Peters cross is also quite plausible and well considered in this context.

All best regards,
Jim

buendia · 30th September 2009, 10:50 PM

Thank you very much for your extreme help and kind words.
Sorry also for my long absence - I have had house remodelling and quite substantial computer break down at the same time.
I have seen many Genoan marks on Eastern swords, but also for example on many swords in Graz Armory in Austria. You won`t believe me how much I would like to know the original interpretations of these "eyelashes" in such a Sudan or Afghanistan... I `m quite sure it could be many fascinating and totally different stories! Maybe their original meaning has changed with time into something totally new?
Was it at the beginning the same case as with famous Toledo swordmaker families (SAHAGU/VM or ANDREA FER/RRARA)?
- "The signature SAHAGVN on the blade has been observed in various spellings on many other Walloon swords and the Visser collection alone provides three different examples (cf. Cat. 549, HV- 693, - 696 and - 698). These various spellings can be regarded as misspellings, either intentional or not, of Sahagun, the name of a famous Toledo dynasty of sword-smiths, operating during the 16th and 17th C (cf. Mann, and Norman)".

Text from Wikipedia - "Andrew Ferrara was a make of sword-blade highly esteemed in Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries. The name is supposed to be derived from the name of the manufacturer, according to some, Andrea dei Ferrari of Belluno, according to others, Andrew Ferrars or Ferrier of Arbroath.[1]

According to some, Andrea Ferrara is a generic name, commonly labelled and found on numerous lade-mediaeval and Renaissance swords throughout Europe. In keeping with the same, it is held that the name was essentially a mark of quality, for Ferrara means 'farrier' or 'blacksmith', in Italian and Italian swords were prized for their high quality leading to the Andrea Ferrara stamp giving them an air of quality.[citation needed]

Their method of manufacture remains much a mystery, but it is suspected that they were made by interlamination, a process of welding the blade in alternate layers of iron and steel. Andrew Ferrara blades were special in their extreme flexibility. For instance, it is said that Andrew Ferrara, the manufacturer of the blades, always carried one wrapped up in his bonnet. They rarely broke, even under immense force and when used to deal horizontal blows.[2]

Generally mounted in a basket-hilt or in that of a claymore, Andrew Ferrara blades were prized possessions, being passed down the generations as heirlooms.

References to them are fairly common in Scottish literature of the 17th to the early 19th centuries.

[edit] References
^ "Chambers 20th Century Dictionary", W. & R. Chambers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1983
^ "The Foreign Quarterly Review - Volume 26", Treuttel and Würtz, 1841
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ferrara"
"
- quite a long citation, but very interesting reading. From my observations I can confirm a numerous presence of Sahagvum and Andrea Ferara blades in Graz Armory.

So a European could be proud when he was wearing ANDREA FERARA on his sword even though it was written incorrectly 3 times on each of the sides of the blade.

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15th September 2009, 10:17 PM	#1
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	OK, now I know. It just required an appropriate leather glove and the "feeling" and grip of the sword completely changed. Bare hand is insufficient for this hilt. It feels somehow thin or too big and the thumb ring doesn`t feel good at all. With glove the sword becomes part of your hand. The grip gets ubelievably strong and comfortable. The sword becomes very fast and precise. And it certainly can swish and slash. Such an inconspicuous blade. I fell in love.

15th September 2009, 10:35 PM	#2
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	A Senefelder - I would be grateful for that. I decided to go through the photos I had saved and picked a few with some resemblances to my sword. The first comes from Stockholm museum and pictures XVII cent. swords for cut and thrust fighting (somewhere in the net is a very interesting photostory from the excursion of fencers and sword experts to the Museum. The next sword M1685 was for Swedish infantry. The third was just labelled 1680 - Northern Europe. All the traces go to Sweden just as it was suggested before. I didn`t suspect that it could be Swedish sword!

17th September 2009, 12:31 AM	#3
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	While a sword of this style could have been sued by a Swede, or perhaps even made here, it is far from certain that such is the case. The impression I've gotten is that this general style saw use in both German areas and the Netherlands (if not elsewhere as well), in addition to Sweden.

18th September 2009, 10:24 AM	#4
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	Thank you for your remark kisak - I had a hard time trying to find or prove its Swedish/North European origin. I didn`t do much progress in that topic, but I have found out that the Swedes did like the Cross of Triumph: What is the correct sword position of looking at a maker`s mark? Looking at the sword this way (actually it`s on the other side of the blade): The mark is in this position: So I have checked what does an inversed cross mean. It`s st. Peter`s Cross - a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ. It makes sense to me - victory but bitter, when you think about. I don`t know if such an interpretation is possible, but it`s interesting.

18th September 2009, 10:50 AM	#5
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	I have found a picture of makers` marks, but no idea where from? The 3 dots on each side of the crescent from my blade are "borrowed" from the marks on this picture! Maybe another symbolic mixture theory? So what`s the name for the marks?

19th September 2009, 05:54 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,872	I very much like the way you are thinking Buendia! You take a systematic approach to examining not just the marking, but the style and elements of the sword overall. As noted, these swords with the thumbrings seem to have been mostly of 17th century, and used from Austria to North Europe and the Low Countries. It must be remembered that these times and regions were of course in a constant state of geopolitical flux, and warfare and trade throughout were a continually present dynamic. Also, it is important to note that Solingen was a powerful industrial and merchandising machine in the production of sword blades, who duplicated the blades of many other centers. It would have been fruitless for any other center to try to duplicate a 'Solingen' blade, as Solingen blades were actually so often designed to impersonate blades of other countries. Probably the most likely explanation for this marking, which is as you have noticed, is that it is actually a composite marking, probably applied to the blade after its production. As previously mentioned, it cannot be associated with a certain maker or city as it is an interpretation of known symbols or devices used either in amuletic or imbued quality sense. The arch with triple dots at either end is of course from the 'Genoan' or 'sickle' mark usually occurring in opposed pair with dentated semi circle. Its use in variation became known later as it was copied by many trade centers and blade makers even in native colonial areas. The cross, again as you have well noted, describing the cross and orb, which was indeed used by a number of European swordsmiths, particularly in Solingen, was most likely used in talismanic sense. The cross is very much present in similar configuration occasionally with other amuletic devices as an invocation calling for divine protection and strength. These were times of profound religious piety as well as of deep superstition and folklore, so the application of these symbols would seem well in place applied to a mans sword, with which he defended his faith, his honor and his very life. Your very astute interpretation of St. Peters cross is also quite plausible and well considered in this context. All best regards, Jim

30th September 2009, 10:50 PM	#7
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	Thank you very much for your extreme help and kind words. Sorry also for my long absence - I have had house remodelling and quite substantial computer break down at the same time. I have seen many Genoan marks on Eastern swords, but also for example on many swords in Graz Armory in Austria. You won`t believe me how much I would like to know the original interpretations of these "eyelashes" in such a Sudan or Afghanistan... I `m quite sure it could be many fascinating and totally different stories! Maybe their original meaning has changed with time into something totally new? Was it at the beginning the same case as with famous Toledo swordmaker families (SAHAGU/VM or ANDREA FER/RRARA)? - "The signature SAHAGVN on the blade has been observed in various spellings on many other Walloon swords and the Visser collection alone provides three different examples (cf. Cat. 549, HV- 693, - 696 and - 698). These various spellings can be regarded as misspellings, either intentional or not, of Sahagun, the name of a famous Toledo dynasty of sword-smiths, operating during the 16th and 17th C (cf. Mann, and Norman)". Text from Wikipedia - "Andrew Ferrara was a make of sword-blade highly esteemed in Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries. The name is supposed to be derived from the name of the manufacturer, according to some, Andrea dei Ferrari of Belluno, according to others, Andrew Ferrars or Ferrier of Arbroath.[1] According to some, Andrea Ferrara is a generic name, commonly labelled and found on numerous lade-mediaeval and Renaissance swords throughout Europe. In keeping with the same, it is held that the name was essentially a mark of quality, for Ferrara means 'farrier' or 'blacksmith', in Italian and Italian swords were prized for their high quality leading to the Andrea Ferrara stamp giving them an air of quality.[citation needed] Their method of manufacture remains much a mystery, but it is suspected that they were made by interlamination, a process of welding the blade in alternate layers of iron and steel. Andrew Ferrara blades were special in their extreme flexibility. For instance, it is said that Andrew Ferrara, the manufacturer of the blades, always carried one wrapped up in his bonnet. They rarely broke, even under immense force and when used to deal horizontal blows.[2] Generally mounted in a basket-hilt or in that of a claymore, Andrew Ferrara blades were prized possessions, being passed down the generations as heirlooms. References to them are fairly common in Scottish literature of the 17th to the early 19th centuries. [edit] References ^ "Chambers 20th Century Dictionary", W. & R. Chambers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1983 ^ "The Foreign Quarterly Review - Volume 26", Treuttel and Würtz, 1841 Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ferrara" " - quite a long citation, but very interesting reading. From my observations I can confirm a numerous presence of Sahagvum and Andrea Ferara blades in Graz Armory. So a European could be proud when he was wearing ANDREA FERARA on his sword even though it was written incorrectly 3 times on each of the sides of the blade.