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Marcokeris · 14th September 2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Great hilt!

I love the natural flow of the figure! And the gold work is very nicely done too. Selut looks very solid.

Was this based on the example in the Invincible Keris?

I don't know.... one indonesian friend showed me this hit two mounth ago during my last trip to Bali. The price was very very hight (gold 18 karat). I never have win a lottery

so...i did only some pics

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2009, 12:39 AM

In old examples of this type of work that I have seen the gold was held in place with jabung.

In newer examples a super-glue type adhesive was used, Alteco is a favourite.

David · 15th September 2009, 01:02 AM

The craftsmanship is lovely, but i'm not so sure that this work is to my tastes. So, is this an old ivory hilt that has more recently been adorned with gold and jewels. The ivory looks old with a nice patina, but the gold work looks new. Or perhaps it is all new and the ivory is just aged this way, but it doesn't seems so. If it is as i suggest, an older ivory hilt recently adorn that i have to ask why? Eye-candy for wealthy collectors? Personally i have the urge to scrape all the gold and jewels off to reveal the beauty of the ivory beneath.

Sajen · 15th September 2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The craftsmanship is lovely, but i'm not so sure that this work is to my tastes. So, is this an old ivory hilt that has more recently been adorned with gold and jewels. The ivory looks old with a nice patina, but the gold work looks new. Or perhaps it is all new and the ivory is just aged this way, but it doesn't seems so. If it is as i suggest, an older ivory hilt recently adorn that i have to ask why? Eye-candy for wealthy collectors? Personally i have the urge to scrape all the gold and jewels off to reveal the beauty of the ivory beneath.

Hello David,

why do you think that the gold work is more recent? I am not sure that it is like this.

I am nearly sure that you can find in old collections hilt's like this which are completly original. Or I am wrong by this?

sajen

A. G. Maisey · 16th September 2009, 12:02 AM

I think you're saying that this hilt is perhaps not so recent, aren't you David?

Yes, it may not be made the day before yesterday, and with that sort of provenance it could date back a little, but this style of hilt is extremely rare amongst old pieces, and not at all uncommon amongst more recent pieces. I think I've only ever seen two of this style that definitely dated to pre-WWII, and neither of them were as refined as the dozens that I have seen that are from current production.

But still, my remarks on false aging are still valid. They may or may not apply to this piece, but it is certain that all which appears to be old in ivory, need not necessarily be so.

David · 16th September 2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think you're saying that this hilt is perhaps not so recent, aren't you David?

Yes, it may not be made the day before yesterday, and with that sort of provenance it could date back a little, but this style of hilt is extremely rare amongst old pieces, and not at all uncommon amongst more recent pieces. I think I've only ever seen two of this style that definitely dated to pre-WWII, and neither of them were as refined as the dozens that I have seen that are from current production.

But still, my remarks on false aging are still valid. They may or may not apply to this piece, but it is certain that all which appears to be old in ivory, need not necessarily be so.

Oh, i have no doubt that your remarks are correct on the aging of new ivory. I am not trying to suggest that this hilt has any great age, but if it was collected in the 50s-60s it could 50-60 years old. The Noe collection, or at least the people who were dealing with the sale of this collection dated this piece to mid 19th century, a dating i am somewhat suspicious of.
Sajen, my statement about the gold being newer than the ivory was more based on the way it looks in the first photos posted of the hilt. I get a different impression from the second set of photos i posted.

Rick · 15th September 2009, 01:04 AM

Thanks Alan .

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2009, 01:38 AM

It would be recent David. The patination is no trick at all. Even the appearance of old ivory with a judicial crack here and there is no trick.

Personally I like this sort of thing very much. As Marco says, this style of work is very expensive, but it is often exquisite.

Don't get me wrong:- I like simplicity too, and I like something that only prioritises the excellence of carving, but in really topline Bali dress the very best is most often really over the top. Its a cultural thing:- understatement is just not the Balinese way. Perhaps our natural inclination might be for quiet excellence, but that just doesn't fit with the exhuberance of Balinese art.

David · 15th September 2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Personally I like this sort of thing very much. As Marco says, this style of work is very expensive, but it is often exquisite.

Don't get me wrong:- I like simplicity too, and I like something that only prioritises the excellence of carving, but in really topline Bali dress the very best is most often really over the top. Its a cultural thing:- understatement is just not the Balinese way. Perhaps our natural inclination might be for quiet excellence, but that just doesn't fit with the exhuberance of Balinese art.

Well, i would say that i completely dislike this sort of thing either. Here are a couple more examples of this type of work from the Adrien Noe collection. I'm pretty fond of the one done up in silver.

David · 15th September 2009, 08:54 PM

Oh that's funny, i just realized that the first one i posted is the same as the one that Marco posted.

Well, at least now we know (or at least Marco does) where part of the collection ended up.

I like it a little better in the pics i posted (goes to show what good photography can do), but i still prefer the silver one for my own sensibilities.

David · 15th September 2009, 08:55 PM

And here's one more that i believe is gold over ebony.

Marcokeris · 16th September 2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Oh that's funny, i just realized that the first one i posted is the same as the one that Marco posted.

Well, at least now we know (or at least Marco does) where part of the collection ended up.

I like it a little better in the pics i posted (goes to show what good photography can do), but i still prefer the silver one for my own sensibilities.

Thanks David for nice pics. Yes i think the two ivory/gold hits are twins made by the same artist. (when i'll be in Bali again i'll try to know something more about.....if i try )
About the way (before or after)to put (or to work) the gold /silver over the hit ....
...i have a very very very old (nyamba?) hit with over a little piece of something like white gold (?). This hit could be very interesting for discussion..i'll try to do some pics soon

Rick · 15th September 2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i would say that i completely dislike this sort of thing either. Here are a couple more examples of this type of work from the Adrien Noe collection. I'm pretty fond of the one done up in silver.

Thanks David, for the different set of pictures of that hilt .
Now I get how the gold work is attached .

David · 15th September 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be recent David. The patination is no trick at all. Even the appearance of old ivory with a judicial crack here and there is no trick.

If this is truly from the Noe Collection i guess the work can't be too recent. As far as i know he amassed most of his collection in the 1950s-60s.

15th September 2009, 08:55 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,267	And here's one more that i believe is gold over ebony. Attached Images

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15th September 2009, 12:39 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,158	In old examples of this type of work that I have seen the gold was held in place with jabung. In newer examples a super-glue type adhesive was used, Alteco is a favourite.

15th September 2009, 01:02 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,267	The craftsmanship is lovely, but i'm not so sure that this work is to my tastes. So, is this an old ivory hilt that has more recently been adorned with gold and jewels. The ivory looks old with a nice patina, but the gold work looks new. Or perhaps it is all new and the ivory is just aged this way, but it doesn't seems so. If it is as i suggest, an older ivory hilt recently adorn that i have to ask why? Eye-candy for wealthy collectors? Personally i have the urge to scrape all the gold and jewels off to reveal the beauty of the ivory beneath.

16th September 2009, 12:02 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,158	I think you're saying that this hilt is perhaps not so recent, aren't you David? Yes, it may not be made the day before yesterday, and with that sort of provenance it could date back a little, but this style of hilt is extremely rare amongst old pieces, and not at all uncommon amongst more recent pieces. I think I've only ever seen two of this style that definitely dated to pre-WWII, and neither of them were as refined as the dozens that I have seen that are from current production. But still, my remarks on false aging are still valid. They may or may not apply to this piece, but it is certain that all which appears to be old in ivory, need not necessarily be so.

15th September 2009, 01:04 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,388	Thanks Alan .

15th September 2009, 01:38 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,158	It would be recent David. The patination is no trick at all. Even the appearance of old ivory with a judicial crack here and there is no trick. Personally I like this sort of thing very much. As Marco says, this style of work is very expensive, but it is often exquisite. Don't get me wrong:- I like simplicity too, and I like something that only prioritises the excellence of carving, but in really topline Bali dress the very best is most often really over the top. Its a cultural thing:- understatement is just not the Balinese way. Perhaps our natural inclination might be for quiet excellence, but that just doesn't fit with the exhuberance of Balinese art.

15th September 2009, 08:54 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,267	Oh that's funny, i just realized that the first one i posted is the same as the one that Marco posted. Well, at least now we know (or at least Marco does) where part of the collection ended up. I like it a little better in the pics i posted (goes to show what good photography can do), but i still prefer the silver one for my own sensibilities.