Sword Blade dates? or Mysterious Gematria?

[potapych]

Interesting subject as always, Jim. Here's a sample to get you started; not one of your dates or necessarily a running Passau Wolf but numbers, a Latin inscription and a critter nonetheless. This is a rapier (or perhaps an espada ropera blade), 30 7/8" in length. (78.4 cm)

Looking decidedly un-wolflike and given the stocky build, brindle and pronounced blunt proboscis, I'm leaning towards an Alano Español for the critter. I have seen it engraved on both a miquelet lock and a powder horn, although it was depicted wearing a collar in both those instances. The inscription translates to: "For God and Religion" but there are some letters following that I cannot make out. As far as I can determine, nothing of world shaking import occurred in the European sphere in 1514.

(Caveat: European arms are not my bailiwick so I could be wrong about any or all of the above ;-)

Ray

[celtan]

Doesn't look like the Running Wolf of Toledo, perhaps one of the many subsequent german variations..?

The style of engraving doesn't seem to correlate to 1514, nor the relatively thin blade.

The latin motto might be "Pro Deo et Religio Vera": For God and (the) true religion.

The pro deo inscription seems to be common in Poland and surrounding areas...

In Sept 8th of 1514, a coalition of Poles an Lithuanians defeated the Russians.

Best

M

Originally Posted by potapych

Interesting subject as always, Jim. Here's a sample to get you started; not one of your dates or necessarily a running Passau Wolf but numbers, a Latin inscription and a critter nonetheless. This is a rapier (or perhaps an espada ropera blade), 30 7/8" in length. (78.4 cm)

Looking decidedly un-wolflike and given the stocky build, brindle and pronounced blunt proboscis, I'm leaning towards an Alano Español for the critter. I have seen it engraved on both a miquelet lock and a powder horn, although it was depicted wearing a collar in both those instances. The inscription translates to: "For God and Religion" but there are some letters following that I cannot make out. As far as I can determine, nothing of world shaking import occurred in the European sphere in 1514.

(Caveat: European arms are not my bailiwick so I could be wrong about any or all of the above ;-)

Ray

[kronckew]

i would caution against assigning any deep and hidden meaning just yet. remember occam's razor.

i am reminded of my barrel knife (posted in the eth. folding knives thread which has just been resurrected).

Originally Posted by kronckew

another ethnic folder i like is the barrel knife from sweden, they are each unique and the parts are not interchangeable.
this is sometimes referred to as an '1874' model as that was when it was 'patented' in the USA by a maker who had learned to make them in sweden, one of the swedish makers, john engstrum stamped his with the date he started making them, also 1874, this is NOT necessarily the mfg. date, he made them from 1874 thru 1918 and all were stamped 1874. they were made from 1864-1925 by the major mfg. mine is a p. holmberg, made between 1900-1920, 2.75 in. barrel.

the '1874' is thus a dubious 'patent' date in one case*, but a date the maker started making date in another, and a 'date' stamped onto many similar knives for almost 50 years.

sometimes numbers are just numbers. sometimes year markings have mundane explanations.

* - p.s. - i understand someone has recently 'patented' the wheel in australia as for some reason, no one had previously patented it there. all hail the inventor of the wheel, he's australian... but no relation to 1874.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i would caution against assigning any deep and hidden meaning just yet. remember occam's razor.

i am reminded of my barrel knife (posted in the eth. folding knives thread which has just been resurrected).



the '1874' is thus a dubious 'patent' date in one case*, but a date the maker started making date in another, and a 'date' stamped onto many similar knives for almost 50 years.

sometimes numbers are just numbers. sometimes year markings have mundane explanations.

* - p.s. - i understand someone has recently 'patented' the wheel in australia as for some reason, no one had previously patented it there. all hail the inventor of the wheel, he's australian... but no relation to 1874.

We crossed posts Kronckew, and that is a very well placed note on the use of year in the case of these patents and model year instances. Wouldn't it be interesting if these numbers were found on similar blades and were perhaps a pattern type? I do know that Solingen makers did appear to align certain inscriptions to the markets or clients receiving the blades in some apparant degree, suggesting type or patterning.
While this seems unlikely, it is certainly worthy of note. At this point, with the use of cabbalistic symbolism so firmly in place on blades in these times, as well as the concurrent use of gematria and ciphers, I am still drawn to the esoteric possibilities of these numbers.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent example Ray!!! and thank you for these observations. You seem to have a pretty impressive understanding of things European despite the modest note The running wolf was a profoundly stylized, almost temporal, image which was used and copied widely in almost countless variations. It seems to have almost always been chiselled or placed with chopped, sticklike lines, and these more artlike figures seem more associated with mid 17th into 18th century European blade motif, quite contrary to the 'Passau' wolf.

As Manuel has well noted, the inscription resembles Polish and Hungarian examples of these periods, but this blade, which seems likely a smallsword or court sword type, may well be from a number of European locations. Most interesting is of course the numeric '1514', again seemingly recalling a date year, and in similar number groupings as others discussed.

Thank you Ray and Manuel for coming in on this, and Ray, for sharing this example which is a perfect example of these variations.

Getting back to the idea of these numbers representing date years, I found another reference to the 'ancient sword with date 1414' noted in my previous post suggesting it was a heirloom associated with Huguenot ancestry. In "History of the Huguenot Emigration to America" (Charles Baird, 1885, p.324), this very sword, belonging to a man named Gabriel Bernon, apparantly a prominant Rhode Island resident is mentioned. The author notes that "...this date synchronizes with that of one of the wars of the House of Burgundy, from whom the Bernon's claim to be descended"...referring to the year 1414 and John the Intrepid whose forces destroyed the fort at Tonnere.

Here is an example of the interesting application of spin in associating these numbers with historic events to serve the developed history of a weapon, much as 'family stories' constantly pervade geneological histories. This is not to discount the obvious profound lineage of this, or any other individual with such accounts, but to illustrate the misperception often found with these engraved numbers on sword blades.

It would seem that if these numbers actually were intended to represent such significant dates, that other motif or dates of certain events would be included to corroborate the rather than the singular broadness of an entire year. As an example, Scottish blades often carry patriotic mottos that are associated with the two historic rebellions, well known as simply the '15 and the '45, for their years 1715 and 1745, yet none of the patriotic blades I have seen have either of these years shown. Admittedly, the terms 15 and 45 are clearly broadly stated, against my note on the use of specific date, but I think the example still serves.

An interesting entry was found in "The Wallace Collection", catalogued by the esteemed Sir Guy Francis Laking in 1900, on p.8, where he describes a German hand and a half sword, and discusses the date 1415 which is engraved in the blade which cannot be accepted, noting that "...often sword blades of this type have stamped upon them the number 1414 together with the running wolf mark; with this combination they may be accepted as being the work of the Austrian early 17th century bladesmith Steyr, who added the number 1414 to the running wolf sign, in order that his blade might not be confused with Passau, who had already adopted the running wolf as his stamp. The number 1415 may likewise have reference to the work of Steyr."

* this note seems to correspond well with Kisak's well placed observation on the number and marking perhaps aligning to represent certain makers. While this does not seem to actually be the case, the concept is certainly sound, as perceived by this most esteemed writer.

This is a most puzzling reference (taken from online copy of an apparantly early copy of this catalog, as my 1962 copy seems to be incongruent with paging and examples). The Passau stamp was as far as I know, originally used in of course Passau, so why wouldn't they have 'adopted' it, and the mark was copied in Austria as is well known, so why would this maker be trying to 'protect' it as his own? Why 1414 or 15?

In my copy of the Wallace catalog, p.247 (A475) a German hand and a half c.1620 blade, has the incised running wolf with crudely cut numbers 1415.
Laking notes, "...the numerals 1415 must not be interpreted as a date, but have some other significance". He goes on to note this number on a dagger and 1414, 1441 on numerous other examples at Bern, Schwarzburg, Tower of London and Windsor Castle along with others. He also mentions figures 1469 and 1515.

* just noticed as reading that 1909 catalog was entirely renumbered in 1962.

It would seem at this point fairly well established that these numbers are not dates, and while in some cases associated with certain makers, they appear no more consistant with the makers than the use of other related markings such as the running wolf.

The quest continues

All best regards,
Jim