On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

fearn · 3rd September 2009, 04:42 PM

Hi Migueldiaz,

I'm not sure that any hallucinogens such as ayahuasca or peyote are ever used in battle, mostly because the normal side effects (projectile vomiting and defecation) along with the visions, make it really hard for anyone to fight under the influence of either of these drugs. Peyote and ayahuasca are also generally taken in a strongly spiritual context, not on the battlefield.

In regard to peyote and warfare, the only question I'm interested in is whether the Native American Church has an active program to reintegrate returning soldiers back into their civilian communities, and whether peyote plays a part in that program. Many native people have rituals and such to help people "come down" from fighting and re-enter their communities. The one I know about is the Navajo "Enemy Way," but I'm sure there are others. It's something the US Army is finally learning to do, and given the harm caused by untreated PTSD, I think it's a good thing.

The drugs I know that have been used in combat include alcohol (to lower inhibitions, it also lowers judgement and accuracy, as we all know), meth, cocaine, and heroin, and that's mostly from vietnam and current third-world conflicts. The fact that some warlords use these drugs on child soldiers is (to me) horrifying.

Obviously, we're getting off the general topic of ethnographic weapons here, unless someone's going to bring out one of those Japanese opium pipe/clubs. Still, many of the weapons we collect were made for war, and this is part of their environment.

I think this thread is setting some sort of record for marginal yet unkillable topicality. What's next?

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2009, 09:41 PM

Very well stated Fearn and Miguel! I am very much inclined to agree that spiritual psychotropics such as peyote would not have been used in battle, nor indeed any hallucinogenics as the detrimental effects in reduction of awareness would have likely been fatal. As noted, Viet Nam did see varying degrees of drug use, mostly used in 'down' time in disassociation, however sometimes in combat situations, and unfortunately we can never know how much loss of life may have occurred in these tragic circumstances, perhaps as a result.

While the field of esoteric and philosophical topics is agreeably expanded to the farthest boundaries of connection to weaponry, again, we are considering man himself as a weapon and better understanding this can help in the little discussed topic of the psychological applications to weapons themselves.

It is a good thing to know that at last the military is beginning to understand the tremendously debilitatiing effects that can cause soldiers terrible difficulty in reassimilating into civilian life. I have seen these very effects and there is little can can be said to accurately describe these often very deep psychological wounds, which defy recognition outwardly, thus elude attempts in trying to heal them.

All best regards,
Jim

migueldiaz · 4th September 2009, 12:18 AM

Fearn, Jim, thanks for expanding and deepening the discussion further!

Given the hypothesis that a man's primary weapon is his mental faculty, then it should follow that during combat his brain will experience the greatest wear-and-tear.

Whereas a weapon can be dispensed with after it gets badly beaten up, unfortunately the soldier and everybody else is stuck with his own brain.

The good news is that military institutions and the general public are now beginning to realize how important it is for them to be sensitive and supportive of PTSD cases.

Like in the UK, we read that finally, hundreds of WW1 soldiers shot for 'cowardice' are to be pardoned. That was an old article, so by this time they may have already been all pardoned.

And we can also recall that famous incident wherein Patton hit a soldier who apparently was suffering from PTSD ...

3rd September 2009, 04:42 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Migueldiaz, I'm not sure that any hallucinogens such as ayahuasca or peyote are ever used in battle, mostly because the normal side effects (projectile vomiting and defecation) along with the visions, make it really hard for anyone to fight under the influence of either of these drugs. Peyote and ayahuasca are also generally taken in a strongly spiritual context, not on the battlefield. In regard to peyote and warfare, the only question I'm interested in is whether the Native American Church has an active program to reintegrate returning soldiers back into their civilian communities, and whether peyote plays a part in that program. Many native people have rituals and such to help people "come down" from fighting and re-enter their communities. The one I know about is the Navajo "Enemy Way," but I'm sure there are others. It's something the US Army is finally learning to do, and given the harm caused by untreated PTSD, I think it's a good thing. The drugs I know that have been used in combat include alcohol (to lower inhibitions, it also lowers judgement and accuracy, as we all know), meth, cocaine, and heroin, and that's mostly from vietnam and current third-world conflicts. The fact that some warlords use these drugs on child soldiers is (to me) horrifying. Obviously, we're getting off the general topic of ethnographic weapons here, unless someone's going to bring out one of those Japanese opium pipe/clubs. Still, many of the weapons we collect were made for war, and this is part of their environment. I think this thread is setting some sort of record for marginal yet unkillable topicality. What's next? Best, F Last edited by fearn; 4th September 2009 at 12:37 AM. Reason: too many stills

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3rd September 2009, 09:41 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,616	Very well stated Fearn and Miguel! I am very much inclined to agree that spiritual psychotropics such as peyote would not have been used in battle, nor indeed any hallucinogenics as the detrimental effects in reduction of awareness would have likely been fatal. As noted, Viet Nam did see varying degrees of drug use, mostly used in 'down' time in disassociation, however sometimes in combat situations, and unfortunately we can never know how much loss of life may have occurred in these tragic circumstances, perhaps as a result. While the field of esoteric and philosophical topics is agreeably expanded to the farthest boundaries of connection to weaponry, again, we are considering man himself as a weapon and better understanding this can help in the little discussed topic of the psychological applications to weapons themselves. It is a good thing to know that at last the military is beginning to understand the tremendously debilitatiing effects that can cause soldiers terrible difficulty in reassimilating into civilian life. I have seen these very effects and there is little can can be said to accurately describe these often very deep psychological wounds, which defy recognition outwardly, thus elude attempts in trying to heal them. All best regards, Jim

4th September 2009, 12:18 AM	#3
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Fearn, Jim, thanks for expanding and deepening the discussion further! Given the hypothesis that a man's primary weapon is his mental faculty, then it should follow that during combat his brain will experience the greatest wear-and-tear. Whereas a weapon can be dispensed with after it gets badly beaten up, unfortunately the soldier and everybody else is stuck with his own brain. The good news is that military institutions and the general public are now beginning to realize how important it is for them to be sensitive and supportive of PTSD cases. Like in the UK, we read that finally, hundreds of WW1 soldiers shot for 'cowardice' are to be pardoned. That was an old article, so by this time they may have already been all pardoned. And we can also recall that famous incident wherein Patton hit a soldier who apparently was suffering from PTSD ...