Since it is a helmet kind of day, what do you make of this?

Conogre · 10th May 2005, 05:39 AM

Africa, particularly Ethiopia, of course, is a distinct possibility, and the African reverence for copper would make it even more probable......plate 26, page 35 of Spring's "African Arms and Armor" shows a helm with similar patterns and the very heavy padded coife worn underneath that even has a set of western cutlery (forks and spoons) attached, from Darfur, late 19th century.
While the metal composition isn't specifically listed, I wouldn't be surprised if both were utilized, with the copper made even more battle worthy when added to the padding underneath.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2005, 03:11 AM

Mike,
Excellent observations as always!!
Thanks for mentioning that very unusual helmet in Spring. It is interesting to note that Darfur was quite connected to regions to the west via the caravan routes, particularly Bornu and of course Nigeria. These same routes were key to the diffusion of considerable weaponry and may well account for the use of the familiar flared tip scabbard of kaskaras on the Manding sabres with guardless hilts.
Best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 14th May 2005, 10:23 AM

It is your opinion then, that said diffusion of the scabbard type was Westward?

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2005, 05:18 AM

Hi Tom,
Yes I do believe this particular scabbard feature was inspired by iconographic sources in eastern regions and moved to the west, via these trade routes.
It is often interesting to see diffusion and certain influences carried in almost a round trip movement.
Best regards,
Jim

Aqtai · 15th May 2005, 11:25 AM

I know very little about African helmets. I am aware that helmets and armour where worn in Sudan until the end of the 19th century, but I was under the impression that these were usually Turkish and Iranian pieces imported decades or centuries before, then passed from father to son as family heirlooms.

This particular helmet partially confirms that for me. Although it is of African manufacture it appears to be modelled upon the Iranian Kulah khud. It shares with the kulah khud the spike, the sliding nasal and the mail camail.

This is going to sound cheeky, but would it be possible pleae to see a photo of the helmet on some kind of stand so we can see the camail and nasal more clearly?

Conogre · 15th May 2005, 07:04 PM

Or perhaps, on a proud owner? **evil grin**
Mike

RSWORD · 16th May 2005, 01:33 AM

Gentleman:

I aim to please. Here is a pic of the helmet on a stand. I must humbly decline Mike's offer to model the helmet due to the fact I could not possibly live up to your modeling standards.

B.I · 18th May 2005, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

plate 26, page 35 of Spring's "African Arms and Armor" shows a helm with similar patterns and the very heavy padded coife worn underneath that even has a set of western cutlery (forks and spoons) attached, from Darfur, late 19th century.
While the metal composition isn't specifically listed, I wouldn't be surprised if both were utilized, with the copper made even more battle worthy when added to the padding underneath.
Mike

whilst i dont doubt springs knowledge on african armour, he has neglected to mention to true origins of the helmet he showed in his book. the bowl is ottoman, and of the late 15thC. he does, in his defence, mention this happening in his text, but describes this helmet as 19thC. it is of steel (unlike ricks), and the padding and 'cutlery' are added on when adapted (i assume 19thC as he states). it is one of my favourite helmets, just for the ludicrous look and sheer genius decoration. for scant memory (from a previous discussion), i believe the mail is butted and so would denote a local manafacture.
ricks helmet is very interesting, and i believe it dated from the same period as the 'cutlery' additions in the BM helmet.
whist its widely assumed 'heavy armour' denotes an early ages, it was worn in the sudanese wars as late as the first years of the 20thC. africa is outside my sphere, but the pitt rivers museum hold a full set of armour (shirt and helmet) that was taken off a body during these wars. the shirt (from memory) is old (centuries earlier) butthe helmet was of crude, local manafucture but held the antiquated shape, with sliding nasal bar and camail. i do have an image which i will try and find.

Aqtai · 18th May 2005, 10:24 PM

The top half of that helmet does look very like a Turkish or Iranian 'Turban helmet'.

I'm sure I have seen a helmet in Royal Armouries in Leeds which was found in Sudan, and was being worn in the 19th century, but was actually a 15th century Mamluk 'shishak'. I'm sure I have a photo of it somewhere.

B.I · 18th May 2005, 10:41 PM

the royal armouries does indeed have a sudanese armour with an early ottoman helmet, but was trying not to divert this post into turkish arms.
there was also one in the paris exhibition/sale in 1998 (with a 16thC bowl) which was taken at the battle of omdurman on sept 2nd, 1898. the ottoman influence was still heavy into the 19thC, but i know there must be more examples more like ricks helmet in existance (but unfortunatley not in my library).
was spring the only one to cover african armour?
the manafacture was always crude, but of a standard form. i'm not too familiar with complete copper examples, although i have seen copper elements.

16th May 2005, 01:33 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Gentleman: I aim to please. Here is a pic of the helmet on a stand. I must humbly decline Mike's offer to model the helmet due to the fact I could not possibly live up to your modeling standards. Attached Images

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10th May 2005, 05:39 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Africa, particularly Ethiopia, of course, is a distinct possibility, and the African reverence for copper would make it even more probable......plate 26, page 35 of Spring's "African Arms and Armor" shows a helm with similar patterns and the very heavy padded coife worn underneath that even has a set of western cutlery (forks and spoons) attached, from Darfur, late 19th century. While the metal composition isn't specifically listed, I wouldn't be surprised if both were utilized, with the copper made even more battle worthy when added to the padding underneath. Mike

14th May 2005, 03:11 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Mike, Excellent observations as always!! Thanks for mentioning that very unusual helmet in Spring. It is interesting to note that Darfur was quite connected to regions to the west via the caravan routes, particularly Bornu and of course Nigeria. These same routes were key to the diffusion of considerable weaponry and may well account for the use of the familiar flared tip scabbard of kaskaras on the Manding sabres with guardless hilts. Best regards, Jim

14th May 2005, 10:23 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It is your opinion then, that said diffusion of the scabbard type was Westward?

15th May 2005, 05:18 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Hi Tom, Yes I do believe this particular scabbard feature was inspired by iconographic sources in eastern regions and moved to the west, via these trade routes. It is often interesting to see diffusion and certain influences carried in almost a round trip movement. Best regards, Jim

15th May 2005, 11:25 AM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I know very little about African helmets. I am aware that helmets and armour where worn in Sudan until the end of the 19th century, but I was under the impression that these were usually Turkish and Iranian pieces imported decades or centuries before, then passed from father to son as family heirlooms. This particular helmet partially confirms that for me. Although it is of African manufacture it appears to be modelled upon the Iranian Kulah khud. It shares with the kulah khud the spike, the sliding nasal and the mail camail. This is going to sound cheeky, but would it be possible pleae to see a photo of the helmet on some kind of stand so we can see the camail and nasal more clearly?

15th May 2005, 07:04 PM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Or perhaps, on a proud owner? evil grin Mike

18th May 2005, 10:24 PM	#9
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	The top half of that helmet does look very like a Turkish or Iranian 'Turban helmet'. I'm sure I have seen a helmet in Royal Armouries in Leeds which was found in Sudan, and was being worn in the 19th century, but was actually a 15th century Mamluk 'shishak'. I'm sure I have a photo of it somewhere.

18th May 2005, 10:41 PM	#10
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	the royal armouries does indeed have a sudanese armour with an early ottoman helmet, but was trying not to divert this post into turkish arms. there was also one in the paris exhibition/sale in 1998 (with a 16thC bowl) which was taken at the battle of omdurman on sept 2nd, 1898. the ottoman influence was still heavy into the 19thC, but i know there must be more examples more like ricks helmet in existance (but unfortunatley not in my library). was spring the only one to cover african armour? the manafacture was always crude, but of a standard form. i'm not too familiar with complete copper examples, although i have seen copper elements.