Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 04:40 AM

You do a pretty fair job as it is , David.

You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40.

This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 07:57 AM

.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic.

That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese...

The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 09:18 AM

Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive.

I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade.

Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly.

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory.

This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan.

All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years.

Both materials give a good result if you understand the process.

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish.

As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work.

As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish..

I saw, that both your examples are 'newer' blades. How about your experience of staining of your old blades? My opinion is based on my own experience on my old blades...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trioxide
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg168.pdf
http://health.yahoo.com/leukemia-med...-d04720a1.html

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 11:19 AM

Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links?

What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan.

In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide.

None at all.

Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic.

So is vinegar.

So is pineapple juice.

So is coconut water.

So is dilute hydrochloric acid.

So is dilute sulphuric acid.

So is citric acid.

And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades.

Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new.

I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too.

However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide.

In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist.

Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice.

If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, .... .

Would you please clarify this sentence, Mr Maisey? Thank you in advance...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2009, 01:57 PM

Pak Ganja, this is the sentence I wrote:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide.

Read the entire sentence and I'm certain it is perfectly clear.

Read the paragraph and there can be doubt at all of my meaning:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

However, just so there will be no doubt at all about my meaning I will attempt to clarify, as you have requested.

I am drawing a comparison between my actual experience over a very long period of time, involving a very large number of blades, and using both substances, namely traditional warangan, and lab. quality arsenic trioxide, and your recounting of the experience of others that has been related to you.

As you would appreciate, this is the difference between extensive first hand experience, my own, and your received reports and impressions from other people.

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you.

Your acceptance or rejection of my comments is of absolutely no importance to me:- I have told what I know to be true and I see no need to prove anything to you, nor to any other person. However, your acceptance of the results of my experience could be to your benefit, although this acceptance would not make one iota of difference to my state of existence.

David · 15th August 2009, 03:27 PM

I do not have anywhere near the staining experience that Alan has, but i must report that i have never had a corrosive effect from staining with arsenic trioxide. I do not have any experience with warangan to compare with, but no corrosive effect is still no corrosive effect and does not need comparison to be a true statement.
I also am not sure why Ganja provided these links to arsenic trioxide warnings either. You will notice that these are basically warnings about ingestion. Again, i would recommend that it is just plain common sense that you not lick your fingers when working with this stuff, do it in a safe environment and clean up well when you are finished. Warangan would be similarly poisonous if ingested so the same warnings would stand for it as well.
Ganja, i believe Alan's remark about "yarns and second hand stories" was not aimed specifically at you. Such second hand advice has been sprinkled throughout this thread and frankly i have found some of it to be questionable info. So far Alan is the only person who has posted information on this thread who has had a vast amount of consistent first-hand staining experience with both lab arsenic and realgar. This experience spans the past 50 years! I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with.

ganjawulung · 15th August 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you. .

I always take positive sides on anything. Even on negative situation. Anyway, thanks for your comments, Alan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with.

Thanks, thanks a lot, David....

GANJAWULUNG

15th August 2009, 09:18 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive. I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade. Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly. Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good. The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory. This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan. All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years. Both materials give a good result if you understand the process. Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish. As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work. As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact. Attached Images

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15th August 2009, 04:40 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	You do a pretty fair job as it is , David. You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40. This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously.

15th August 2009, 07:57 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic. That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese... The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"... GANJAWULUNG

15th August 2009, 11:19 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links? What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan. In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide. None at all. Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic. So is vinegar. So is pineapple juice. So is coconut water. So is dilute hydrochloric acid. So is dilute sulphuric acid. So is citric acid. And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades. Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new. I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too. However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide. In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist. Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice. If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide.

15th August 2009, 01:57 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Pak Ganja, this is the sentence I wrote:- Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Read the entire sentence and I'm certain it is perfectly clear. Read the paragraph and there can be doubt at all of my meaning:- Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good. However, just so there will be no doubt at all about my meaning I will attempt to clarify, as you have requested. I am drawing a comparison between my actual experience over a very long period of time, involving a very large number of blades, and using both substances, namely traditional warangan, and lab. quality arsenic trioxide, and your recounting of the experience of others that has been related to you. As you would appreciate, this is the difference between extensive first hand experience, my own, and your received reports and impressions from other people. You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you. Your acceptance or rejection of my comments is of absolutely no importance to me:- I have told what I know to be true and I see no need to prove anything to you, nor to any other person. However, your acceptance of the results of my experience could be to your benefit, although this acceptance would not make one iota of difference to my state of existence.

15th August 2009, 03:27 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I do not have anywhere near the staining experience that Alan has, but i must report that i have never had a corrosive effect from staining with arsenic trioxide. I do not have any experience with warangan to compare with, but no corrosive effect is still no corrosive effect and does not need comparison to be a true statement. I also am not sure why Ganja provided these links to arsenic trioxide warnings either. You will notice that these are basically warnings about ingestion. Again, i would recommend that it is just plain common sense that you not lick your fingers when working with this stuff, do it in a safe environment and clean up well when you are finished. Warangan would be similarly poisonous if ingested so the same warnings would stand for it as well. Ganja, i believe Alan's remark about "yarns and second hand stories" was not aimed specifically at you. Such second hand advice has been sprinkled throughout this thread and frankly i have found some of it to be questionable info. So far Alan is the only person who has posted information on this thread who has had a vast amount of consistent first-hand staining experience with both lab arsenic and realgar. This experience spans the past 50 years! I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with.