Unusual Kirach For Discussion

tom hyle · 8th May 2005, 04:39 PM

The back edge (usually shorter on kirach; this one is unusual at least to my experience, and it sounds like to that of others as well) looks sharper perhaps because its bevel is wider; I'm pretty sure this is due to the blade having somewhat of an overall wedge-section, rather than being flat (?) thus for the same angle (is it?) to come to an edge takes a wider descent thru the thicker metal at the spine side of the wedge?

Rick · 8th May 2005, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The back edge (usually shorter on kirach; this one is unusual at least to my experience, and it sounds like to that of others as well) looks sharper perhaps because its bevel is wider; I'm pretty sure this is due to the blade having somewhat of an overall wedge-section, rather than being flat (?) thus for the same angle (is it?) to come to an edge takes a wider descent thru the thicker metal at the spine side of the wedge?

Flat but thick .

It is slightly wedge section at the base but at mid point and judging by eye (misplaced my caliper

) it appears to be flat .

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 05:17 AM

Just noticed on a shortword size 'sosun pattah' ? with khanjhar form parrot head steel hilt that I have, the blade tip also has the armour piercing reinforcement. This weapon is undoubtedly Mughal and 19th c. but more interesting now that I have seen this kirach.

Once again buried in a sea of archival debris, I at last found some references to that confounded 'sunburst' or whatever it is on the blade!!

In "Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour" Sir James Mann, 1962, p.390, this marking appears on a Swiss dagger c.1560 in two of them parallel. Somehow, it makes no reference to the meaning, despite the fact that the time was taken to draw them! grrr!
I found these toothed circles again in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, #545) on the blade of a sabre d. 1600-1610. These appear in multiple combinations of one on either side of an almond shape with the same toothed design. These appear as motif in the fullers, with about 20 of them in all.

While on an Indian weapon, we may expect such a symbol to have either religious or talismanic/auspicious meanings. However if these have been duplicated from European blades, as often was the case, such symbols may be derived from cabbalistic/alchemical devices. A symbol very similar to this only with a concentric dot center is used in context to describe fire. There are numerous ideograms with dots etc. that denote iron, as well as 'wind furnace' (=forge).

It is unfortunate that whatever was between the 'sunbursts' is obliterated as it might help further establishing possible meaning. Another thing that seems significant in markings that sometimes appear on these blades is the key and unusual places they appear. For example, a grouping of specific number of dots placed at the choil or peak of false edge of a blade.
Many of these mysterious marks have alchemical or cabbalistic meaning that is of course long lost to us, but may have been well understood at the time these blades were made.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 06:10 AM

Ahah! Just discovered something in S. Haider "Arms & Armour of Muslim India" p.99. A heavy fabric coat studded with large nails has in the middle of the back a large silver boss with silver metal lines projecting from it, much like our familiar sunburst. It is stated this is a 'hazagund' (zirah hazar maikhi), a type of armour that is noted by Robinson ("Oriental Armour" p.103) as termed by the Rajputs 'coat of a thousand nails'.
Haider notes further that Lahore was the greatest center for armour making for the Mughals and made the finest examples.
Possibly the symbolism might be found here?
Jim

Rick · 9th May 2005, 02:48 PM

Here's the best close up I can get for now .

Jim McDougall · 9th May 2005, 03:47 PM

Hi Rick,
Thank you for the extra shot of the markings.
I cannot resist noting that the more I see this sword, the more I like it!
The wear that has obscured the markings as well as the rough patination where the metallic covering has left distinctly suggests age, and to me that is solid beauty!!
Despite the fact that the apparantly stamped images between the toothed circle appear indistinguishable, the positioning is key. The fact that these toothed circles appear in the same sequence as used in the Italian motif is what is important, and the early 17th century provenance of these markings as well. Such markings found on European blades seem to have profoundly influenced many armourers in India as they used interpretations of them in many variations to declare quality and talismanic virtue on their own blades.
Ironically, this outstanding blade certainly needed no such superfluous pronouncements or markings!

It is also a note of interest, while reviewing Italian markings I noticed the familiar 'sickle marks' that have so often been a matter of discussion. These of course also carry the 'toothed' application seen on these discs as well as on almond shaped figures that often appear with these toothed discs in combination. The 'sickle marks' that are often associated with early Genoan markings, and more commonly Styrian application, appear almost consistantly on Afghani palouars' blades. While the markings are obviously not the same, it is interesting that their 'toothing' is similar, and their earlier ancestry seems to Italian armourers, with thier use found in the NW quadrant of India.
Good grief! I'm starting to sound like a dentist with all this toothy talk!!!

Best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 17th May 2005, 12:26 AM

OK, here's the thing. If, as Rick says, (and as is fairly common) the sword is wedge sectioned, but becomes flat or nearly so by the cutting area, then the false edge must be at a more acute/fine angle than the true edge, because the rear bevel appears to be consistantly wider. The interesting thing about this is that it would be consistent with a US fighting style featuring an large bowie with the "clip" sharped to a hatchet-like angle, when it is used, as some insist is the correct way, with the main edge upward, toward the thumb....

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8th May 2005, 04:39 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The back edge (usually shorter on kirach; this one is unusual at least to my experience, and it sounds like to that of others as well) looks sharper perhaps because its bevel is wider; I'm pretty sure this is due to the blade having somewhat of an overall wedge-section, rather than being flat (?) thus for the same angle (is it?) to come to an edge takes a wider descent thru the thicker metal at the spine side of the wedge?

9th May 2005, 05:17 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Just noticed on a shortword size 'sosun pattah' ? with khanjhar form parrot head steel hilt that I have, the blade tip also has the armour piercing reinforcement. This weapon is undoubtedly Mughal and 19th c. but more interesting now that I have seen this kirach. Once again buried in a sea of archival debris, I at last found some references to that confounded 'sunburst' or whatever it is on the blade!! In "Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour" Sir James Mann, 1962, p.390, this marking appears on a Swiss dagger c.1560 in two of them parallel. Somehow, it makes no reference to the meaning, despite the fact that the time was taken to draw them! grrr! I found these toothed circles again in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975, #545) on the blade of a sabre d. 1600-1610. These appear in multiple combinations of one on either side of an almond shape with the same toothed design. These appear as motif in the fullers, with about 20 of them in all. While on an Indian weapon, we may expect such a symbol to have either religious or talismanic/auspicious meanings. However if these have been duplicated from European blades, as often was the case, such symbols may be derived from cabbalistic/alchemical devices. A symbol very similar to this only with a concentric dot center is used in context to describe fire. There are numerous ideograms with dots etc. that denote iron, as well as 'wind furnace' (=forge). It is unfortunate that whatever was between the 'sunbursts' is obliterated as it might help further establishing possible meaning. Another thing that seems significant in markings that sometimes appear on these blades is the key and unusual places they appear. For example, a grouping of specific number of dots placed at the choil or peak of false edge of a blade. Many of these mysterious marks have alchemical or cabbalistic meaning that is of course long lost to us, but may have been well understood at the time these blades were made. Best regards, Jim

9th May 2005, 06:10 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Ahah! Just discovered something in S. Haider "Arms & Armour of Muslim India" p.99. A heavy fabric coat studded with large nails has in the middle of the back a large silver boss with silver metal lines projecting from it, much like our familiar sunburst. It is stated this is a 'hazagund' (zirah hazar maikhi), a type of armour that is noted by Robinson ("Oriental Armour" p.103) as termed by the Rajputs 'coat of a thousand nails'. Haider notes further that Lahore was the greatest center for armour making for the Mughals and made the finest examples. Possibly the symbolism might be found here? Jim

9th May 2005, 02:48 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	About The Obliterated Marks Here's the best close up I can get for now . Attached Images

9th May 2005, 03:47 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Hi Rick, Thank you for the extra shot of the markings. I cannot resist noting that the more I see this sword, the more I like it! The wear that has obscured the markings as well as the rough patination where the metallic covering has left distinctly suggests age, and to me that is solid beauty!! Despite the fact that the apparantly stamped images between the toothed circle appear indistinguishable, the positioning is key. The fact that these toothed circles appear in the same sequence as used in the Italian motif is what is important, and the early 17th century provenance of these markings as well. Such markings found on European blades seem to have profoundly influenced many armourers in India as they used interpretations of them in many variations to declare quality and talismanic virtue on their own blades. Ironically, this outstanding blade certainly needed no such superfluous pronouncements or markings! It is also a note of interest, while reviewing Italian markings I noticed the familiar 'sickle marks' that have so often been a matter of discussion. These of course also carry the 'toothed' application seen on these discs as well as on almond shaped figures that often appear with these toothed discs in combination. The 'sickle marks' that are often associated with early Genoan markings, and more commonly Styrian application, appear almost consistantly on Afghani palouars' blades. While the markings are obviously not the same, it is interesting that their 'toothing' is similar, and their earlier ancestry seems to Italian armourers, with thier use found in the NW quadrant of India. Good grief! I'm starting to sound like a dentist with all this toothy talk!!! Best regards, Jim

17th May 2005, 12:26 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	OK, here's the thing. If, as Rick says, (and as is fairly common) the sword is wedge sectioned, but becomes flat or nearly so by the cutting area, then the false edge must be at a more acute/fine angle than the true edge, because the rear bevel appears to be consistantly wider. The interesting thing about this is that it would be consistent with a US fighting style featuring an large bowie with the "clip" sharped to a hatchet-like angle, when it is used, as some insist is the correct way, with the main edge upward, toward the thumb....