Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

Nando, thank you for your comments. I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant. If jambiyya means "hip" it does not authorize to call "jambiyyas all daggers carried on the hip. Szabla is an historic weapon, with clear features, including a curved blade, no matter what the name meant originally. If it is a fact that the term is used in other sense and is accepted as such in english, it is all what I wanted to know. It only surprised me.

Fearn, I enjoy your comments, as always.

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant...

It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I'd like to open some discussion on the term 'spadroon', the etymology...

Sorry .

Saludos

Fernando.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gonzalo


It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:



Sorry .

Saludos

Fernando.

No, Fernando. In this point (spadroon) I gave my point of view. And Jim latter stated that the origin of the words were not very important for certain purposes. And then, agreeing with him and in another subject (szabla), I made the above comment. Please don´t be sorry, as there is no reason for.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gonzalo, Fernando and Chris,
I have many times emphasized I am far from being a linguist, but that does not curtail my inate curiosity. You guys are all really good at this stuff, and I really appreciate all the insight into these terms.

After bringing up the topic, and being satisfied with the information presented, it became even more apparant that in studying the weapon itself, the term became somewhat secondary, though not discounting the importance of the observations.

I really just wanted to know if the term itself may have reflected the somewhat pretentious character of the weapon itself, focused on the term spadroon. The szabla thing is irrelevant to what I was seeking, as are reviews of other weaponry terms, despite interesting sidetracks.

Thanks so much guys every time you all talk, I learn!! Outstanding,

All the best,
Jim

[Mark Cloke]

Hi Everyone,

Jim contacted me to tell me about this forum so I have just registered. I recognise a few names on this forum but to those who don't know me my name is Mark Cloke and my area of interest is the Birmingham sword cutlers of the 17th/18th/19th century. Currently researching the 'running fox' mark and 'Harvey'.

On the subject of spadroons and the diamond motif I think we can say that this was not limited to Thurkle. I have seem quite a few of these and they are marked to a wide array of London and provincial cutlers. I wouldn't rule out Thurke introducing it (someone had to be first) but in my opinion it could have been anyone. I also wouldn't rule out a single 'hilt maker' supplying them to a wide array of cutlers. Some of these manufacturers often used by the large cutlers such as scabbard makers, hilt makers, engravers etc. are lost to time as only the 'retailers' names are marked (unless in Silver and hallmarked). I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site) with and without the diamond.

I don't really have an opinion on the five ball discussion. The Masonic link does sound interesting and they were certainly very active during this period. Now the seed is in my mind I will see what I can find out.

Mark.

[fernando]

Welcome aboard, Mark .
Fernando

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Mark Cloke

I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site)

Don't worry I already did. You have done a lot of work on it and is a great resource. . Welcome aboard!

Jeff

[fernando]

Hi Mark
Can't you include the link to your site in your profile?
Fernando

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

A wonderful and most informative thread. Thank you all for your inputs.

Without being a linguist, I can fairly confidently say that languages rely to a very considerable degree on prevailing conventions. And these conventions impart the meaning to many words used. For example, `Cool' today can have a very different meaning than say a hundred years ago.

Often, in a given era, certain terms were used synonymously with other terms, which in a later era were sharply differentiated - The nomenclature of Gaucho knives immediately springs to mind, as do ancient fencing terms. It is the researcher's task to unravel what a particular term meant then and today. Failure to do so simply leads to confusion and incorrect interpretations.

Cheers
Chris