Keeping on the path to hand cannons.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron.

It should read cast iron, of course ...

m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

It should read cast iron, of course ...

m

Understood in the first place; in portuguese is fundido.
Fernando

[fernando]

I have tried to take resasonable (?) detailed pictures.
Cast iron they are, of course Michael.
They even look to have come out from the same foundry, judging by their texture and also their relative design.
Their conical profile is rather pronounced, as may be seen in these new pictures, specially the large one.
Their walls are quite thick, their bases are even much more; the large one weighs 7,5 kg.
It could (should) be that they are signal mortars but, within my ignorance, with such walls and bases, they could well be (or serve) on a weapon scheme ... don't ask me which version .
Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis? .

Fernando.

.

[fernando]

The large one

.

[fernando]

The small one

.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis? .

Fernando.

O sim, mi amigo,

18th/19th century, especially as they are fundido.

Btw, very good images!

The areas around the touch holes of both items seem to have been altered within their working life: while a former pan like moulding seems to have been removed from the larger one, the touch hole of the smaller barrel seems to have been burnt out and consequently reduced in diameter.

If I were you I would fill them up with powder, put a wooden plug in the muzzles and bang away using a slow match to make the sound ring out all over Portugal - if they have not burst so far they certainly won't now! Just imagine them jumping from the recoil!

Best,
Michael

[Philip]

Fernando and Michael,
I agree with the assessment that these interesting things were intended as celebratory noisemakers and not weapons. Look at the larger one, there is a crescent shaped protrusion below the touchhole that looks like a protruding priming pan was broken off. On the smaller one, this is not visible but as has been remarked above, the touchhole has been "bushed" or lined so who knows what was there originally. (or, could what looks like a bushing or liner be the remains of a projecting priming pan which has also been broken off?).

Shooting these with blank charges would be fun! Fernando, just think how you could enliven your local festas with a few shots as the cortejo with all the flags, saints, and candlesticks marches past your house! You know that in the Azores, fireworks are a big thing; one of the biggest producer of fireworks shows for holidays here in California is an Azorean immigrant named de Souza. When I was still in university, in Hawaii, my friends and I had a small brass cannon (from Mexico) whose bore was just big enough to shoot a frankfurter sausage from. On New Years Eve we'd shoot sausages at neighbors houses and cars. Once we tried frozen sausages but decided it was too dangerous.

Now for the cold water -- old metal, especially cast iron, can be brittle and there is always the danger of bursting. I knew this Navy officer who collected lantakas, the Malay bronze swivel cannons. He liked to shoot a couple of his on New Years as well, until one exploded with a blank charge. It fragmented into three sections, one of which flew over his house. His wife laid down the law, no more shooting if he wanted to keep his collection...

[fernando]

Hi Michael

Originally Posted by Matchlock

O sim, mi amigo,

Your portuguese is visibly improving ... still with a Bavarian accent, though .

Originally Posted by Matchlock

18th/19th century, especially as they are fundido.

I take it that being fundido (cast) is not the unique reason for the (these) pieces being 'modern', and surely other contextual elements must be taken in consideration ... which escapes my unexistant knowledge in the matter. I mean, there were cast iron cannons already by mid XVI century. Obviously this fact alone is not enough to date a piece, but further explanations would be welcome ... so that one may learn some more .

Originally Posted by Matchlock

If I were you I would fill them up with powder, put a wooden plug in the muzzles and bang away using a slow match to make the sound ring out all over Portugal ...

Watch out for my lack of experience with böllers; i might as well load them with an overdosis and the plug flies over to Bavaria .

Lots of health
Fernando

[fernando]

Thank you for coming in, dear Philip.
I see that you also sugest i should fire the things with blanks; in this case when the procession comes by, risking to burn the priest's cassock .
However, i can't help looking at this type of things without attributing them a more bellicose utility.
I have heard versions (i ignore if documented), where they could make a lot of damage, even not loaded with a classic projectile. Like being used in series, to burst strategical spots; or fired under flagstones, or embedded in castle gates, anywhere imagination goes.
Talking of imagination, firing sausages is not a bad number .
Concerning fireworks over here, we lately hear intense campaings stimulating the end of their use, mainly for safety reasons; every seasons countless accidents occur in the country, with the use (or misuse) of fireworks. I have seen in the TV a little village where they play a record with the noise of fire crackers in the curch tower, to substitute the real thing and possible accidents. How's that?
Best.
Fernando.

[Philip]

Dear Fernando,
The use of a wooden plug (even a cork or thick paper wad will do) is useful in short barrels to confine the powder and make a proper explosion. In long, musket length barrels, even that is not necessary. A couple weekends ago I attended a military historical re-enactment festival at an old seacoast fort near my house, and there was a squad of "soldiers" trained and dressed in the manner of the English Civil War doing drills with matchlock muskets. Shooting with blank charges of course. What surprised me is how reliable these weapons can be (so long as it isn't raining!) -- misfires were at a rate of 2% at most, and the troops could discharge a respectable volley, the guns going off almost at once. Even more interesting was that for display purposes, a fairly good speed of fire could be obtained without using wads or plugs, and thus dispensing with the need to deploy, use, and put back the ramrod. Without ramming or wadding, the powder in the bottom of the barrel would explode quite nicely, making an impressive noise. I asked why, for the sake of realism, that they didn't just load a wad and go through the motions of ramming down a real bullet. The "commander" told me that they would do it at a proper shooting-range but in a place with crowds of public around, the risk would be of someone forgetting to remove the ramrod from the barrel, turning his espingarda into a harpoon launcher!

You mentioned an interesting application of the "handgonne" concept in war, to applications which didn't involve pointing it at someone and shooting a bullet. Yes, I've seen reference to fairly large-diameter things resembling the noisemaking Boeller, but used to blow open gates or strong doors. They were called "petards", the weapon was loaded with a suitable charge and fastened with its mouth against the gate. I also have translations of 15th-17th cent. Chinese military manuals which describe all manner of concealed explosive devices, operating under ground or water, some ignited remotely by a complex system of fuses.

I would tend to think that a barrel made to fire vertically upwards would have a priming pan that sticks out laterally, as you see on most Boeller. The larger of your two barrels appears to have the remnants of this feature, as I have pointed out previously.

Re: your comment about the move to outlaw fireworks in Portugal -- what a shame. Of course people get hurt in accidents, but on holidays when everybody's been drinking, they also crash their cars, fall off bicycles, and get into fights. Recorded sounds of firecrackers is no substitute for cannons firing sausages and other follies. Here in the States, most urban areas have banned firecrackers and the use of rockets and Roman candles by the general public. However, by an interesting legal quirk, the reservations on which the remaining tribes of Indians live are considered "sovereign territory" and they write their own rules regarding certain types of fun, such as casino gaming and fireworks. So they make good money from people driving to their territory to buy some impressive pyrotechnic devices. We used to be able to drive over the border to Mexico for the same thing, but the border inspections post-9/11 have spoiled that. It may be illegal to shoot them off at home, but the police can't arrest everybody!