Wallachian Swords of the 15th Century: What Types?

[kronckew]

dates are always confusing me, 1476 is the last quarter of the 15th century and only 24 years from the 16th century - which starts in 1500, so i had lept at the assumption that the changes over that short a period would not have been great. wallachia had been under mongol rule until the early 1300's (14th century) when hungary took over, so curved mongolian style swords would possibly be familiar objects. the area involved:


found this partial image of a statue of him holding a sword that is straight however. not found any details on the date of the statue



this one shows vlad recieving turkish envoys, seems to show him wearing a sabre very like the charlemagne/attilla/9c kronckew repro.

again, no date info on painting, may have been dramatic license of a later artist. national gallery bucharest.

cropped/sharpened section:


he has a mace in this one

edited:found a better photo, shows a sword

this one looks to be fairly recent, no sword visible, is that his coat of arms?


of course attempts to photograph him in later years after his death were unsuccessful as his image cannot be photographed or seen in a mirror

(i personally suspect that as his head was removed and sent to the turkish sultan in instanbul, where it was displayed, fittingly, impailed on a spike, that his transformation into a classical vampire would have been impossible. severing the head (or spine) was one of the traditional ways to kill one. he would have made a great headless horseman tho, ichabod crane would have loved to meet him)

[TVV]

Approximately at the same time Vlad III ruled Wallachia, in neighboring Moldova ruled Stefan the Great, whose sword is currently in the Top Kapi armoury in Istanbul.

Courtesy of Micha Hofmann in the MyArmoury forums, I was able to find the following image, which I think shows the sword quite well. Too bad the Ottomans did not decide to keep one of Vlad's swords as a memento of him, it would have helped us a lot.

David Nicolle wrote a book on the region's arms and armor for Osprey, titled something like "Hungary and the Fall of the Eastern Roman Empire", which may contain some insight in the arms used in Wallachia in the 15th century.

Regards,
Teodor

[kronckew]

as mentioned, this all was going on around the time of the fall of the roman empire, which ended with the fall of byzantium/constantinople in 1453 (name changed officially to 'istanbul' in 1930 - the turks called it mostly constantinople (Kostantiniyye in turkish) tho some called it istanbul or other variants).

constantinople was defended by 7000 odd men in 1453, mostly venetian and genoese mercenaries against 80,000 turks, mehmet used siege artillery to batter down it's formidable walls. as the sons of the then emperor fled, and the remaining free roman states were not conquered till 1460, one could argue that as the date of the final fall, or even 1503 when the last graeco-roman 'emperor' died.

quite a mix of cultures and weapons in the area in the latter half of the 15th c. this event is seen as the end of the dark ages, and the start of renaissance europe as the populace that fled spread byzantine culture throughout europe.

wheelocks are thought to have been invented around 1500, wonder if ol' vlad may have had a beta copy for evaluation from one of the techie geeks of the age.

[Jim McDougall]

Kronckew and Teodor,
Thank you so much guys for this great information, and excellent images!!!
It would seem the statues reflect the knightly broadswords of medieval Europe as the type weapon likely used by Vlad, and this would seem to agree with the powerful German/Saxon presence in Wallachia and these regions.

Teodor, great work in locating the photos of the sword of Stefan the Great held in Topkapi, and our appreciation extended to MyArmoury forums for sharing it. Interesting item above the sword, which appears ivory.

Kronckew, LOL!! You truly have a great sense of humor! I truly love your pop-ups , along with the great images you share.

The painting of Vlad seated is kind of blurred, but the sword pommel seems to correspond to the Hungarian/Turkish sabres, and it seems I can see a trace of what appears to be the very wide crossguard. As often is the case, I would suspect artists license here.
The period of Vlad III would seem to take place in the time of the dramatic transformation from Medieval to renaissance, and such change did not take place overnight. It would seem that the advent of sabres was likely quite connected to the developing of light cavalry, the sipahi, as frontier type units often comprised of warriors from tribes of the Steppes.
While the traditional swords of standing armies of the Ottomans likely followed similar broadswords to those of the Mamluks early weapons, it seems that the sabre gradually supplanted these forms.

As mentioned previously, the Transylvanian museum images I have seen, seem to have numerous sword forms, the Germanic broadswords of varying form as well as I believe some elaborate hilted examples of Hispano-Moresque form, which I would presume were some sort of diplomatic gift rather than commonly used form. Going by uncaptioned photos is always a bit precarious as there are numbers of other weapons, such as Austro-Hungarian sabres of as late as 19th century and kilijs etc. in many of the same display cases.

Thanks again guys very much!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Thanks for the heads up Teodor on the Osprey title.....its on the way but I'll have to call for an airdrop probably if it doesnt get here before the bus rolls David Nicolle is a brilliant scholar and author on the history of the weaponry of these regions and periods.

[Samik]

Hello ,
I thought I would chime in on those pesky sabres . Usualy the knightly class (i.e. western shock cavalry) of the pre-Mohacs(1526) era hungary was equipped with longswords, pretty much like their germanic cousins. However sabres were a common weapon of the light cavalry long before any contact with Ottoman Turks happened (light cavalry usually consisting of Pechengs , later on Cumanians and Szekely (sic) which were semi-nomadic nations that resided in the lands of hungarian kings and fought pretty much like mongols).

If I may I would also disagree a little bit with you Jim (hope you dont mind ) that hungarian sabres were the direct descendants of Turkish sabres and only appeared in the course of 16th century. There is evidence both in form of antique weapons http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/disp...lbum=40&pos=57 (hope I can post this link from another "armoury" website , if not I will try to edit the post) and in heraldy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibook...%281466%29.jpg ( a rare 1466 Corvinus era coat of arms , that belongs to some hussar by the name of Peter). As you can see from the above examples the sabres had more in common with schiavonesca style swords than Kilij-proper ( I dont like to call the turkish sabres "kilij" , AFAIK its a generic term for sword , but whatever ). Note the handle and the presence of a "sword" pommel. Furthermore there is a nice example of a schiavonesca-style longsword alongside a similarly styled sabre http://www.tforum.info/forum/gallery..._295_18626.jpg

To determine the armament used by count Vlad III. is however a bit difficult. If he was the typical 15th century Wallachian nobleman like his father (and many other Hungarian ones) that served as a knightly/shock cavalry (again I dont like to use the term "heavy" , it somehow conveys clumsiness and slowness , which was not the case imho) it would look pretty much like this I guess http://www.hung-art.hu/kep/zmisc/far...2/hunyadi7.jpg

However from what little I know about Vlad's life , in his early youth he was sent together with his brother to Turkey as a hostage. There he was however trained in Ottoman way of war and Qur'an logic. I even think that his "comeback" arrival home was with an ottoman army ,in order to seize fathers kingdom and to become a sort of a pupper ruler for the ottomans (I am not sure on this story though I would welcome if somebody more familiar with Vlad's life could check it up). Thus one might argue that he could have access to Turkish weaponry, although the lack of evidence is preventing from making any such claims.


P.S: English is not my native language , so sorry for any errors

P.S.2: I am a new guy here , so please go easy on me and HELLO everyone

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Samik, and WOW, thats what I call an entrance!!!! Welcome

I absolutely do not mind you disagreeing, in fact the outstanding information you have presented beautifully orients our discussion (no pun intended) concerning whether Vlad's sword might have been a sabre of Ottoman form.

Excellent point on the ethnic diversity of Hungary in these times, and indeed there were varying nomadic tribes from the Steppes who certainly are known for using the developing sabre form. This truly is well placed information and in focusing on the Ottomans, had entirely overlooked the presence of these peoples in Eastern European kingdoms.

I know what you mean about the term 'heavy cavalry' or heavily armoured etc. and I think the best example I can think of that disproves that misconception were the Polish 'Winged Hussars', which of course is simply one example of European armoured cavalry. ...hardly slow, and definitely most formidable.

You are also quite right in the note regarding application of sword terms, which is also often extremely misleading, and there seems to be so many instances where a more detailed description is much more effective. It seems we have had debates on terminology so often, which seldom resolve any of the issues, but also prove interesting when new perspective or evidence is presented.

Again, I am so glad you joined us here, and thank you so much for the beautifully presented observations, links and perspective. I very much look forward to your continued participation in searching more into this puzzle.

All the very best,
Jim

[Samik]

Thank you for the warm welcome Jim!

As for joining this forum I have always wanted to do so long ago , but only recently discovered (well today to be precise) that I had to email Mr. Jones in order to register (silly me!). I would also like to thank you and the other forum members as you were one of the sources of inspiration for me in order to pursue further knowledge about the subject.

But enough with my rant, lets see if I (or somebody else) will try to dig some more about Vlad...(oh and Wallachian swords of the 15th century!)

Sorry for the interference

[Elias Shereider]

Originally Posted by Samik

However from what little I know about Vlad's life , in his early youth he was sent together with his brother to Turkey as a hostage. There he was however trained in Ottoman way of war and Qur'an logic. I even think that his "comeback" arrival home was with an ottoman army ,in order to seize fathers kingdom and to become a sort of a pupper ruler for the ottomans (I am not sure on this story though I would welcome if somebody more familiar with Vlad's life could check it up). Thus one might argue that he could have access to Turkish weaponry, although the lack of evidence is preventing from making any such claims.

Yes Samik,

At the 14 years (its de 'Juvenis' age, a adult man in the XV) Vlad was retained by the Murad II in her court un the Ottoman empire for 4 years 1444-1448.
Vlad return to Vallachia in 1448 after the battle of KosovoJ with 30.000 Turkish soldiers to reign Vallachia in Mullads's name.

This indicates that his first sword was Turkish.

sorry for my bad english,

Elias

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Elias Shereider

Yes Samik,

At the 14 years (its de 'Juvenis' age, a adult man in the XV) Vlad was retained by the Murad II in her court un the Ottoman empire for 4 years 1444-1448.
Vlad return to Vallachia in 1448 after the battle of KosovoJ with 30.000 Turkish soldiers to reign Vallachia in Mullads's name.

This indicates that his first sword was Turkish.

sorry for my bad english,

Elias

Hi Elias, and welcome!!! I'm glad to see you here. I hope you will find the discussion intreresting, and add findings from your research on this topic as well.



While I still have been trying to catch up on the complexity of the history of these regions in these times, and am in complete admiration of the command of it by Samik, as well as Emanuel, I'm still not convinced that Vlad would have carried an Ottoman type sword.

It remains that the German influences in Wallachia were prevalent, and certainly the sword blades were as well. In "Hungary and the Fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568" by David Nicolle (Osprey, 2001, p.26) the sword of Stephan the Great of Moldavia c.1480 is shown (also seen in post #5 here). It is a standard simple crossguard broadsword with blade believed possibly imported from Germany.
Though obviously suggested, not declared, the note is simply to show that these German blades were straight broadsword forms used apparantly extensively in these regions in these times, and by prominant figures. The influence and import of German arms and armour had prevailed for well over two centuries at this point, and certainly would have been well established.

While Vlad was held by the Ottomans, and certainly did receive training by them, it does not necessarily prove that he subscribed to thier styles and weaponry, despite various suggestions of his doing so by later accounts and particularly artistic interpretations.

I think one strong suggestion for the possibility of Vlad's use of a sabre is probably the noted influences of the Cuman (Kipchak) tribes in Hungary and their use of sabres is of course well known, as was that of other steppes tribes whose ethnic presence throughout these regions is established.
Since Vlads final reign was accomplished in the year of his death 1476 with the help of Hungary, perhaps that light have presented the potential for sabres at his disposal.

As always, looking forward to more from Samik, Emaneul and Elias and others who have far better understanding of this history than I, and thier thoughts.

All the best,
Jim