what were the working blades of India?

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2009, 05:08 PM

Very well posed question Kukulz, and as you note, many tribal and ethnographic cultures cross utilize weapons as tools, especially in the SE Asian, Indonesian, Filipino and many other cultures where weapons such as machetes are required.

As Jens has noted, in India, the tulwar and shamshir were often used in hunting, and examples with scenes in relief of hunts etc (motif termed shikargar) are well known. In India, it seems that the hunt was not only for sport or food , but actually served as essentially a form of training and exercise for military and combat acuity. It has been suggested that in some ways, contests against wild animals were a sort of test, and it was especially challenging to fight predatory animals such as the tiger even with a katar or dagger.

The pichangatti shown by Jens was as noted, a utility knife, often with added and attached items for tonsorial use etc. however, as with most implements.....could certainly serve as a weapon as required....much as we have certainly heard of kitchen knives used. Most knives in tribal areas serve as eating utensils on occasion, dressing of game, while in most cases those of station often used various forms of knives en trousse.

As you have mentioned, the chopper type weapons such as Malabars, ayda kaetti, may have served in any number of utility uses as required, but it is doubtful such use was specifically intended.

Many weapons such as the kora, and as Jens mentioned, the kukri, were not only weapons, but used as sacrificial implements. The ram dao, which surely again, could have been used as a weapon, usually was for sacrificial use only.

These are mostly what comes to mind at the moment, but cannot think of a weapon of the subcontinent offhand made to serve as both tool and weapon.,

All best regards,
Jim

Rick · 20th June 2009, 05:31 PM

I think the kukri is an excellent example of a working knife carried by working people .

ausjulius · 21st June 2009, 05:16 PM

from what ive observed there are many of indian agricultural tool styles.. they are generaly of a very very rough quality .. and not rely weapon associated.. unlike south east asia where the tools morph into weapons and can be found in many grades of quality..
it seems the most common indian tool is a billhook type of knife .. generaly you can find this item all over the subcontinent..
also there is some double edged knives used for the specific task of opening coconuts..
another style is a clearer like tool with a rather blunt end..

i would guess there is many many other type.. but as in europe and the middle east there is a clear destinction from weapons and tools..
unlike south east asian tools..

Rick · 21st June 2009, 05:50 PM

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

ariel · 21st June 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

And I always thought that Ram Daos are things of the past:-)

fernando · 4th December 2009, 02:46 PM

Hey, Rick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

Doesn't this one look like mine ?
I still try and figure out what mine would be; probably a tool/weapon ... but where from

.

Sorry for the hijack, KuKulz

Fernando

.

Rick · 4th December 2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hey, Rick

Doesn't this one look like mine ?
I still try and figure out what mine would be; probably a tool/weapon ... but where from

.

Sorry for the hijack, KuKulz

Fernando

.

Yup Fernando, quite similar in form .
I don't know if the Nepali version has a socket mounted handle .

Spiral ?

spiral · 4th December 2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yup Fernando, quite similar in form .
I don't know if the Nepali version has a socket mounted handle .

Spiral ?

Sorry Fernando somehow I missed your post. I could be wrong but yours doesn't realy look like Nepalese work to my eye.

Rick the few Ive seen had ferrules on the grip rather than socketed blades.

Spiral

ausjulius · 21st June 2009, 05:55 PM

KuKulzA28 · 22nd June 2009, 12:18 AM

Thanks for the very informative replies!

That's very interesting... the forward-curved, sickle-like billhook blades are very similar to the working blades in Taiwan... they did not use the stereotypical straight machete for work, it was the curved "fat sickle" type of the blade... in Taiwan there too was a good distinction between war and work blades (to some degree). Although the Aborigines (Yuan Zhu Min) often used their headhunting blades for survival and fighting... when Chinese peasants revolted against the Dutch, they use the biggest blade they had... the curved rice-knife or the billhook style blade. Street brawls and fights often involved spears, cleavers, dao, axes, etc.

sirupate · 22nd June 2009, 09:25 AM

In Nepal the the slashers/sickles are used much more now, as the carry of kukri is now pretty much prohibited, unless up in the hills, or in the jungle for protection which Dave and I did;

And obviously security Guards

Generaly the kukri is one of those blades which is dual purpose, both a general user, but also a weapon, although there are obvious exceptions to this rule.

KuKulzA28 · 22nd June 2009, 04:16 PM

Very cool!

I noticed this guy on [edited O.A. link] looks like a nicer version of the blade type that ausjulius linked to!

[note, try the *sold* section of the site for examples]

21st June 2009, 05:50 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Nepali working blade . Dinner, coming up . Attached Images

22nd June 2009, 04:16 PM	#12
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Very cool! I noticed this guy on [edited O.A. link] looks like a nicer version of the blade type that ausjulius linked to! [note, try the sold section of the site for examples] Last edited by Rick; 22nd June 2009 at 04:29 PM. Reason: item currently for sale

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20th June 2009, 05:08 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Very well posed question Kukulz, and as you note, many tribal and ethnographic cultures cross utilize weapons as tools, especially in the SE Asian, Indonesian, Filipino and many other cultures where weapons such as machetes are required. As Jens has noted, in India, the tulwar and shamshir were often used in hunting, and examples with scenes in relief of hunts etc (motif termed shikargar) are well known. In India, it seems that the hunt was not only for sport or food , but actually served as essentially a form of training and exercise for military and combat acuity. It has been suggested that in some ways, contests against wild animals were a sort of test, and it was especially challenging to fight predatory animals such as the tiger even with a katar or dagger. The pichangatti shown by Jens was as noted, a utility knife, often with added and attached items for tonsorial use etc. however, as with most implements.....could certainly serve as a weapon as required....much as we have certainly heard of kitchen knives used. Most knives in tribal areas serve as eating utensils on occasion, dressing of game, while in most cases those of station often used various forms of knives en trousse. As you have mentioned, the chopper type weapons such as Malabars, ayda kaetti, may have served in any number of utility uses as required, but it is doubtful such use was specifically intended. Many weapons such as the kora, and as Jens mentioned, the kukri, were not only weapons, but used as sacrificial implements. The ram dao, which surely again, could have been used as a weapon, usually was for sacrificial use only. These are mostly what comes to mind at the moment, but cannot think of a weapon of the subcontinent offhand made to serve as both tool and weapon., All best regards, Jim

20th June 2009, 05:31 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I think the kukri is an excellent example of a working knife carried by working people .

21st June 2009, 05:16 PM	#3
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 447	from what ive observed there are many of indian agricultural tool styles.. they are generaly of a very very rough quality .. and not rely weapon associated.. unlike south east asia where the tools morph into weapons and can be found in many grades of quality.. it seems the most common indian tool is a billhook type of knife .. generaly you can find this item all over the subcontinent.. also there is some double edged knives used for the specific task of opening coconuts.. another style is a clearer like tool with a rather blunt end.. i would guess there is many many other type.. but as in europe and the middle east there is a clear destinction from weapons and tools.. unlike south east asian tools..

21st June 2009, 05:55 PM	#9
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 447	http://www.flickr.com/photos/jailusser/2448057675/ here you can some of double and single edged hooked knives.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/meanestindian/90515979/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnibel/867502568/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/harshadsharma/331057387/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mkuram/3588383329/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattlogelin/114697722/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/yameza/1334875092/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattlogelin/824301545/ looks homemade from an old saw that one... but it is the correct shape of a normal indian working knife... a non indian tool found in parts of india populated by tribal folks.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lindadevolder/3437218977/ more simple knives http://www.flickr.com/photos/lennymika/2573192846/

22nd June 2009, 12:18 AM	#10
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks for the very informative replies! That's very interesting... the forward-curved, sickle-like billhook blades are very similar to the working blades in Taiwan... they did not use the stereotypical straight machete for work, it was the curved "fat sickle" type of the blade... in Taiwan there too was a good distinction between war and work blades (to some degree). Although the Aborigines (Yuan Zhu Min) often used their headhunting blades for survival and fighting... when Chinese peasants revolted against the Dutch, they use the biggest blade they had... the curved rice-knife or the billhook style blade. Street brawls and fights often involved spears, cleavers, dao, axes, etc.

22nd June 2009, 09:25 AM	#11
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	In Nepal the the slashers/sickles are used much more now, as the carry of kukri is now pretty much prohibited, unless up in the hills, or in the jungle for protection which Dave and I did; And obviously security Guards Generaly the kukri is one of those blades which is dual purpose, both a general user, but also a weapon, although there are obvious exceptions to this rule.