Bombardier stilettos

[fearn]

So Jim,

You're saying that this is a blade you could count on?

F

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fearn

So Jim,

You're saying that this is a blade you could count on?

F

Yup! If one was on the wrong end they'd get the point!!
Just wondering exactly how much measuring these were really used for. Most references seem to suggest they were to clear touch holes or spike the weapon in last resort, also to use if emplacement overrun.
I'm just curious why the markings never appeared before the 17th century, at least according to known literature.

Or was the alleged marking on blades, as suggested, to circumvent the 'stiletto control law' ?

The emphasis on these seems to center in Northern Italy.....are there any references or examples showing use of these with artillery in other countries.

There are references suggesting these are calculation numbers to set trajectory. How were elevations determined and set before the 17th century on artillery....were there tools or special settings for calculation before they were applied to stilettos ?

It seems that if an artllery emplacement was overrun, it would be by either cavalry or infantry with long muskets and bayonets. How effective would a close quarters stiletto be against such opposition?

Mythbusters, here we go

All the best,
Jim

[broadaxe]

My idea regarding the figures & intervals on the blade: since all the examples brought here show numbers from 1 to 120, I think they stand for Venetian military ounces. Venice had a military weight system, different from the civil sustem.

As for using the stiletto for elevation measure - sorry, I don't think so. First, one must use additional tools to the the stiletto and the whole procedure is cumbersome. Second, for elevation taking & aiming there was a very simple yet innovative, precise instrument: the gunner's quadrant.
http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/museum/esim.asp?c=100379
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/geometry/fig11m.htm

A very good little book Artillery Trough the Ages can be found entirely here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20483...-h/20483-h.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

My idea regarding the figures & intervals on the blade: since all the examples brought here show numbers from 1 to 120, I think they stand for Venetian military ounces. Venice had a military weight system, different from the civil sustem.

As for using the stiletto for elevation measure - sorry, I don't think so. First, one must use additional tools to the the stiletto and the whole procedure is cumbersome. Second, for elevation taking & aiming there was a very simple yet innovative, precise instrument: the gunner's quadrant.
http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/museum/esim.asp?c=100379
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/geometry/fig11m.htm

A very good little book Artillery Trough the Ages can be found entirely here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20483...-h/20483-h.htm

That makes good sense, and as I think was mentioned, many of these known seem to have the numbering considerably affected by the corrosive and abrasive effects of presumably the powder. Thank you for the great links,
and I can see that as an elevation tool, these single scales would not be able to provide the geometric latitude of adjustable quadrant and graduated arc.

So these geometric instruments, quadrants, that were used c.1530's were seemingly pretty well established for artillery gunners.......any information on what they used in those days to guage the charge and measure the powder? We know that by 1661, the gunners stiletto's had the numeric scales on them....maybe the function of measuring simply was a ruler or graduated stick?

It would seem that these marked stilettos were probably genuinely used for the purpose suggested, of measuring powder, and it was suggested that they were possibly a mark of specialist elite, or possibly rank (chief cannonneer). Perhaps, the spurious marking of stilettos resulted because of these effectively outlawed weapons, thus the numbers of them known. Apparantly the fusetti "'gunners stiletto') was so well known it was called colloquially 'un centoventi' (Ital.=one hundred twenty) for the high number on the scale on them.

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

I agree with all this. One thing I'm wondering is whether these knives were also used to measure off fuse lengths.

F

[katana]

I have a problem believing the stilleto would be any use if a 'gun' enplacement was 'over-run'. Cannons would be a strategic target....and its 'capture' would add to your fire power against the enemy.

Thinking 'laterally' I wonder if the stilleto had another use.....if you quenched the blade ...without tempering it, the blade would be very hard...but brittle. Still functional as a stabbing weapon but could be used to incapacitate a cannon.... Your position is over-run, the enemy are about to capture your guns ...you stick the stilleto in the fuse hole (perhaps even 'hammer it in ) hardened steel would 'bite' into the softer iron,....grab the hilt and snap the (brittle) blade ...which would likely snap 'flush' with the cannons outer surface. This would be very difficult to remove, especially in 'battle' conditions.
Voila...a cannon without a useable fuse hole ......a cannon that cannot be 'turned' on your comrades..

Regards David

PS the 'graduation' marks ...if deep enough ....would make good 'snapping' points

[Matchlock]

With about all having been said and considered, I am afraid that I will not be able to contribute substantially. Artillery is just not sufficiently covered by my expertise but I finally did manage to find some more illustrations.

Unfortunately they cannot shed new light either on the discussion whether the numeric scales on gunners' stilettoes etc. refer to caliber or cannon adjustment. Literature seems to be very vague on these issues. About all I could find seems to prove that Jim is absolutely right in postulating an Italian provenance for gunners' stilettoes in general.

The caption to the stiletto below just notes 'stiletto with artillery scale, Venice, ca. 1670'.

I add some original illustrative sources on the use of artillery quadrants and other measuring methods, though.

Best,
Michael

[katana]

Originally Posted by katana

Thinking 'laterally' I wonder if the stilleto had another use.....if you quenched the blade ...without tempering it, the blade would be very hard...but brittle. Still functional as a stabbing weapon but could be used to incapacitate a cannon.... Your position is over-run, the enemy are about to capture your guns ...you stick the stilleto in the fuse hole (perhaps even 'hammer it in ) hardened steel would 'bite' into the softer iron,....grab the hilt and snap the (brittle) blade ...which would likely snap 'flush' with the cannons outer surface. This would be very difficult to remove, especially in 'battle' conditions.
Voila...a cannon without a useable fuse hole ......a cannon that cannot be 'turned' on your comrades..

Regards David

PS the 'graduation' marks ...if deep enough ....would make good 'snapping' points

Hi
It seems 'plugging' the touch hole was a common procedure when necessary. I still think that the stilleto, carried by the gunners, would be quickly and easily accessible and if the 'point' thin enough would make an ideal spike.

".....When a cannon had to be abandoned such as in a retreat or surrender, the touch hole of the cannon would be plugged flush with a iron spike, disabling the cannon (at least until metal boring tools could be used to remove the plug). This was called "spiking the cannon"...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon

Regards David