Is this Indo-Persian?

[broadaxe]

I'm relatively new in this field but have begun most recently to study Bedouin sabers. Re-fitting swords and scabbards was quite common. I've handeled several swords lately, some of them were untouched for dozens of years and they looked similar, meaning re-fitted during their working time.
Suspencion could have been edge down or edge up, no matter where the rings are.
Check this link, showing the Pope's visit to Israel with Kawas - ceremonial muslem body guards - that can bee seen during the first seconds, carrying swords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Psm...eature=related

Take also a look at this photo, from Beth-Lehem, 1934:

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent input Broadaxe, I see what you mean on the carrying rings...excellent photo too! Thank you so much. That does put things back to the Arabian sphere. While a rough sabre, it is the type used by Bedouins well into the 1930's.

Thank you again for your response Teodor.

[TVV]

Jim,

Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century.
I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir.
Rehards,
Teodor

[ariel]

As per photo, the "edge-up" swords have suspension rings on both sides: to hang them from the baldric. The one under discussion has only one set of rings, i.e. to suspend it from the belt. Had it been designed in Arabia, it would have had two sets.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim,

Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century.
I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir.
Rehards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,
Argumentative never crossed my mind, and your suggestion was well placed. I was trying to think of how the very clear Arabian characteristics might be associated with what I perceived as perhaps Georgian possibilities. In both of these spheres, swords were key weapons well into the 20th century, and crudely refurbished examples were common as tribesmen sought to keep thier weapons serviceable.
I think this is the charm of these relatively modern examples that were made for use as well as traditional wear , and it is often difficult to discern whether these assembled examples were put together for authentic purpose or for sale.
Whatever the case, I wanted to thank you for your kind response and addressing me personally, very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim

[Iliad]

Hi guys, thanks heaps for the learned discussion. I am always amazed at how much you can deduce just from looking at photos!
I like to attach a label to each of my pieces, for I D purposes, but how do I label this one in 5 words!!!!
I paid about 250 US Dollars for it, so didn't outlay too much. I've had my money's worth in enjoying the discussion!
Brian

[Jim McDougall]

Brian you did great in what you got this for !!
I'm glad you are working at properly identifying your weapons, as that is reflective in your interest in thier history, an admirable trait .

I have learned a lot in this thread as well, not only the reminder of one of the most important edged weapons...Occams Razor but in the research that I have undertaken in examining this fascinating sabre. In one of my posts I noted my course of deduction and emphasized that these observations were,
"speculation by the numbers". This does not always present correct answers.
I include this note as a reminder to myself, as well as to those interested in the serious study of these weapons.

The photo clearly shows the 'baldric' method of wearing the sabre, and while most Arabian sa'if have carrying rings near the top of the scabbard throat, it appears many have double carrying rings on one side of the scabbard. In this case, the rings seem typically mounted opposite the edge, and it would appear that the individuals are holding the sabres edge up, in a pose suggesting 'ready to draw'.
It does seem typical that the sword scabbard was grabbed in this manner as the sabre was drawn edge up. It does not seem too far fetched that a Bedouin tribesman placed these rings in such location to preparedly have the sword in position, 'quick draw' as it were.

In researching more on the Bedouin, their colorful history is entirely fascinating, and I recall complete intrigue in watching the compelling movie "Lawrence of Arabia" with Peter O'Toole.
I think of Lawrence's venerable book "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" (which I used to display with a favorite, notably simple, Bedouin sabre I had) and
the quintessant Bedouin saying:

"...I and my brothers against my cousins, I and my brothers and cousins against the world".

A great reference for history on Arabia is found inexpensive in paperback,
"The Kingdom of Arabia and the House of Sa'ud", by Robert Lacey.

I also learned that the Bedouins, at least some of the tribal units, are well known for the raising of white doves. It is even suggested that the term 'Bedouin' derives etymologically from Phoenicio-Arabic , be=white ;
douim= dove, obviously this theory has the usual opposition in degree.
In any case, this may explain the 'bird' images in the cartouches.

It is noted that European preconceived cultural attitudes and need for established hierarchy in observing the tribal units did not necessarily work well in the broader scope. Apparantly the tribes and thier units are from the simple family unit, the 'tent' or 'bayt'; then the grouping of several tents, the 'goum'. and then 'ibn amm' ...the cousins.
The tribal leader, the sheikh (Ar.=elder) was the patriarchal figure of the tribe, however consistancy could change as relationships between him and tribal members and groups changed.

What all of this history means is that the assumption that this sabre was 'put together by an amateur' seems to fall in place with the perception that every weapon of somewhat substandard, less tham museum quality, is a 'tourist' piece, is too often randomly applied to many ethnographic weapons.

If I were to caption this sabre, and with all of the very helpful discussion placed here to arrive at some consensus, I would say:

A Bedouin sabre, mid 20th century

While this blade is definitely a 'trade' blade, it is of triple fuller form which is copied from European forms that were produced into the 20th century (similar examples are seen in "Boarders Away" Gilkerson). The crude fullers suggest native production, probably imitating earlier Hungarian sabres.
As I have been emphatically informed, the silverwork is not Georgian which is clearly correct after I have discovered the information on doves. I am grateful for learning that as well. The note on the carrying rings is also absolutely correct, and looking at Khevsur examples they are indeed flat and more refined.

Bedouin's typically did not have blacksmiths as handicrafts and such work were considered demeaning, in the 19th century ("History of Arabia", Andrew Crichton, 1833), however certainly by the 20th century, such restrictive attitudes probably were less prevalent. It seems quite possible this blade may have been furbished into a charming interpretation of the much admired Persian shamshirs, and regardless how crude the work, it was fashioned with purpose and probably worn proudly by at least one Bedouin tribesman.

All very best regards,
Jim