Rare Pilipino Swords....

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 01:22 PM

Once I got a double temper line etching a Visayan sword and I don't know what to say about it. There is a narrow stripe at the edge that's dark, and then a wider stipe that's less dark, and then the paler "base" colour, if I may. Sometimes it's hard to tell weld lines from temper lines, but hese lines do not coincide with the grain of the metal.

Rick · 30th April 2005, 02:55 PM

I'd like to read your impressions on these construction methods :

Ian · 30th April 2005, 03:33 PM

Here is a Visayan sword that I posted a while back in another thread. The edge hardening is obvious after an etch with ferric chloride. What's your take on the method used here?

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 05:44 PM

Photos are difficult to read compared to examining an object but I'll give a go. Rick, That kris sundang apears to be a sandwich type blade, which is usual. It is possible that it is panel-welded, but one does not often see that much wander to the core on panel welded swords, whereas it is fairly common to see in the side plates from forging out the tip on sandwich type blades (is it kind of helical, or does it go toward the same edge on both sides?). The cheeks of the blade seem to show some contrast internally/macro. The very central (widthwise speaking) area seems to perhaps have a more complex pattern of some kind, but is not clear in the photo? Is it humped, or hollowed? Does it show core or a sort of 5 layer constuction; I've seen kris sundang with 5 macro layers; didn't etch 'em, but it'd make sense if the outer one on the flats was a decorative one, and I don't think I've seen an old kris sundang (this is a kris sundang, yes?) with hollow ground flats, which might expose the core on a sandwich blade. Oop Yes I have, but only as a distinct groove; not the subtle hollowed flat. Looking some more. It looks like a more or less flattened hex cross section. Near the tip there's a small welding flaw within the pattern of the most outer macro layer (?), but I wouldn't worry too much about it.
The dog head sword looks to be displaying a temper line. It could be an inlaid edge, but seems to exhibit a jagged uneveness usually seen only from welds if they are for pattern, which is possible, but I don't think is what I'm seeing. Not at all sure though, and probably being influenced by my expectations. Close-up? The blade has some longwise lines that may be fold lines, but are more likely grindlines, and some cloudy shapes that are probably sheen/patination/etc?
The close close up I can't see much in; I think I see an inlaid edge; I see some kind of layering, and only right at the edge. I'm not sure what to make of the dark area on the blunt (?) side of the tip.
Ian, I see a temper line on the one you show. Note it is the same breadth on both sides; a macro weld on this type of blade is expected to be scarfed, so it is wide on the flat side, and narrow like this on the cutting bevel. I don't see any sign of folding, but it looks like an old sword to me, and it probably is folded steel with the other main likelihood being imported foreign industrial steel, but as I say, I suspect that was often folded as well, by PI smiths. Notice the temper line stops well short of the base of the blade.

Ian · 30th April 2005, 06:15 PM

Tom:

I added some further pictures which do seem to show a laminated blade, as you suggested, and more detail of the hardened edge from each side. Does the prominent white line demarcating the hardened edge reflect a transition zone as a result of the tempering process?

Ian.

Rick · 30th April 2005, 07:58 PM

Hi Tom the central core ( I believe it goes all the way through) on the kris sundang is a very heavy jellyroll twist ; that area is also a wide shallow fuller , there is also a narrow deeper fuller on one edge .

The Bonifacio (if I may) seems to me to be cheeks of different steel laminated on a possibly iron core ; that blade has had a thorough etch ; only problem is if it is tripartate construction the lines of demarcation are not readily apparant on the spine .

The last picture is of the Baiwan sword tip ; I believe this may well be the same construction method as the bolo .

A better look at the bolo edge .

And below it what I believe to be an inlaid panel over the core of a very old kris , akin to pamor .

tom hyle · 30th April 2005, 09:33 PM

Yes, akin to pamor is a pretty good description of the usual kris sundang construction. What makes you think the one is panel-welded? I take it the core tracks the same way on both sides? An inlaid edge on a single edged blade that runs all thne way thru to the spine would be odd; more usually it is pinched into the edge of the blade.

30th April 2005, 02:55 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Some Analysis Please Tom I'd like to read your impressions on these construction methods : Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 30th April 2005 at 04:20 PM.

30th April 2005, 03:33 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	This one too Tom Here is a Visayan sword that I posted a while back in another thread. The edge hardening is obvious after an etch with ferric chloride. What's your take on the method used here? Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 30th April 2005 at 06:10 PM.

30th April 2005, 05:44 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Photos are difficult to read compared to examining an object but I'll give a go. Rick, That kris sundang apears to be a sandwich type blade, which is usual. It is possible that it is panel-welded, but one does not often see that much wander to the core on panel welded swords, whereas it is fairly common to see in the side plates from forging out the tip on sandwich type blades (is it kind of helical, or does it go toward the same edge on both sides?). The cheeks of the blade seem to show some contrast internally/macro. The very central (widthwise speaking) area seems to perhaps have a more complex pattern of some kind, but is not clear in the photo? Is it humped, or hollowed? Does it show core or a sort of 5 layer constuction; I've seen kris sundang with 5 macro layers; didn't etch 'em, but it'd make sense if the outer one on the flats was a decorative one, and I don't think I've seen an old kris sundang (this is a kris sundang, yes?) with hollow ground flats, which might expose the core on a sandwich blade. Oop Yes I have, but only as a distinct groove; not the subtle hollowed flat. Looking some more. It looks like a more or less flattened hex cross section. Near the tip there's a small welding flaw within the pattern of the most outer macro layer (?), but I wouldn't worry too much about it. The dog head sword looks to be displaying a temper line. It could be an inlaid edge, but seems to exhibit a jagged uneveness usually seen only from welds if they are for pattern, which is possible, but I don't think is what I'm seeing. Not at all sure though, and probably being influenced by my expectations. Close-up? The blade has some longwise lines that may be fold lines, but are more likely grindlines, and some cloudy shapes that are probably sheen/patination/etc? The close close up I can't see much in; I think I see an inlaid edge; I see some kind of layering, and only right at the edge. I'm not sure what to make of the dark area on the blunt (?) side of the tip. Ian, I see a temper line on the one you show. Note it is the same breadth on both sides; a macro weld on this type of blade is expected to be scarfed, so it is wide on the flat side, and narrow like this on the cutting bevel. I don't see any sign of folding, but it looks like an old sword to me, and it probably is folded steel with the other main likelihood being imported foreign industrial steel, but as I say, I suspect that was often folded as well, by PI smiths. Notice the temper line stops well short of the base of the blade. Last edited by tom hyle; 30th April 2005 at 06:01 PM.

30th April 2005, 07:58 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Tom the central core ( I believe it goes all the way through) on the kris sundang is a very heavy jellyroll twist ; that area is also a wide shallow fuller , there is also a narrow deeper fuller on one edge . The Bonifacio (if I may) seems to me to be cheeks of different steel laminated on a possibly iron core ; that blade has had a thorough etch ; only problem is if it is tripartate construction the lines of demarcation are not readily apparant on the spine . The last picture is of the Baiwan sword tip ; I believe this may well be the same construction method as the bolo . A better look at the bolo edge . And below it what I believe to be an inlaid panel over the core of a very old kris , akin to pamor . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 30th April 2005 at 08:14 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

30th April 2005, 01:22 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Once I got a double temper line etching a Visayan sword and I don't know what to say about it. There is a narrow stripe at the edge that's dark, and then a wider stipe that's less dark, and then the paler "base" colour, if I may. Sometimes it's hard to tell weld lines from temper lines, but hese lines do not coincide with the grain of the metal.

30th April 2005, 06:15 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Tom: I added some further pictures which do seem to show a laminated blade, as you suggested, and more detail of the hardened edge from each side. Does the prominent white line demarcating the hardened edge reflect a transition zone as a result of the tempering process? Ian.

30th April 2005, 09:33 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, akin to pamor is a pretty good description of the usual kris sundang construction. What makes you think the one is panel-welded? I take it the core tracks the same way on both sides? An inlaid edge on a single edged blade that runs all thne way thru to the spine would be odd; more usually it is pinched into the edge of the blade.