TS marking o a german(?) 16th century blade

[cornelistromp]

Hello,

All the Original 2 character Toledo marks have the name Character above the Town character (T for Toledo as the lowest character).
(This is also copied by Wolfgang Stantler, Muenchen).

your mark can be the mark of Clemens Tesche Solingen 17thC or Wilhelm Tesche Solingen early 17thC, it is published that they both have copied Toledo marks (Alonso de Sahagun, S under crown, Tomas de Ayala ST under crown).
The name of the maker T(esche) above the town mark S(olingen) makes sense if they copied well.


I think the type of the hilt and blade can give more outcome, can you place a
picture in this thread?

best regards

[Valjhun]

Here it is.

Is that the so called muenchen town watch sword?

[cornelistromp]

HI,

100% a German Sword, those swords are also made in other German cities,
I think stantler initiated those type end of 16thC in Munich.
your sword is a (later) variation of the town watch sword.
the pommel is atypical for what you would expect at the Munich town watch sword and the sword can be dated a bit later 1625-1640.

(so difficult to proof but it can be made by Tesche Solingen as mentioned in my previous reply, .....................it also can be not)

I found a Town watch sword for your reference with the characters reversed (as the Toledo Tomas de Ayala and Wolfgang Stantler marks)

regards from Holland

[Jim McDougall]

Very interesting, and nice examples.
I am wondering about the 'town watch' distinction used in describing these swords. I am not familiar with that term, and cannot help thinking of Rembrandt's famed painting , the so called "Night Watch". This is apparantly a militia company with arquebusiers, and I am wondering if these swords were typically favored by these company's or if the term has other meaning.

Is the asymmetrical hilt peculiar to these, or simply a popular design of the time?

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Maybe this is time to post some Toledo swordmakers marks in the sticky thread 'Early makers trade marks'.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post83338
I don't think they were already included there.
Fernando

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very interesting, and nice examples.
I am wondering about the 'town watch' distinction used in describing these swords. I am not familiar with that term, and cannot help thinking of Rembrandt's famed painting , the so called "Night Watch". This is apparently a militia company with arquebusiers, and I am wondering if these swords were typically favored by these company's or if the term has other meaning.

Is the asymmetrical hilt peculiar to these, or simply a popular design of the time?

All best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,
yes correct.
in the middle ages every civilian had to take part in defending the cities.
In the 13thC came the military use of the bow and arrow. to use the bow and arrow special skills were needed. the people united themselves in "schuttersgilden" to practice with the hand and foot bow. at the end of the 14thC general rules were made and duties and rights were described by the city government. those schuttersgilden were often "used"
by the defending of the Dutch cities because of their shooting skills.
on the other hand they were very difficult to control them.
It was an Honor to be selected as a member of those schuttersgilden and the members were from the upper class and they financed their own expensive weapons. The dutch schutters paintings of Rotius (1650, Alkmaar) show already very "new for that period and progressive " small sword models!!!
after 1580 the gildes were organized after a military model.
Rembrandt's night watch the compagnie of Frans Banning Cocq was painted in 1642. The tasks/power of the schutters was already reduced to control the streets in the evening and nights. Due to frequent misbehaviors of those schutters during the night duty all the tasks were taken from them a bit later.
I understood the German Munich Town guards/watch were formed after a military model and were all provided with the same armour and a Stantler type town watch sword/rapier. Maybe Michael can tell us more about this.

for this sword type see the last auction of
http://www.hermann-historica.com/

lot 3677

best regards

[Valjhun]

6.500 + 23% buyers commision???

WTF???

I hadn't realise, that it has such a value! WOW!

Anybody interested?

[Valjhun]

Gents, many thanks to all of you, especially to cornelistromp, for your research and comments.

Having that gem in my collection, I've became somehow interested in that field. Can you advise with some literature?

Thank you!

Here are the rest of the pics: