Random chosen pictures of the Oriental beauties

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello wolviex,

No I am not angry, I am very pleased, with the pictures and with your kind words.
What you show are fantastic pieces - thank you very much, and the photographing is exelent - I wish I could do it like you have, but I have problems controlling the light.
I have not been able to write as I have been unable to get on the net since Saturday, and only to day the modem or the telephon central for this area has started to behave, although it is very unstable, so to get an answer to you I will send it now, and comment later when things gets more stable.
Interesting comments Radu and Jim.

Thanks - it is a pleasure to see your pictures.

Jens

[wolviex]

Jens: thank you.

Radu: are you going to ruin prof Zygulski work of life
I won't linger discussion about armour I have mentioned before, because of few private reasons and because the pic of it is not here. Anyway, thank you for this remark about "non-compatibility" of this few objects - maybe someday we will continue this further

The parade axe was dated by prof Zygulski as 17th/18th century so far. Well, I'm in hard position now Radu. Prof Zygulski is a great scholar and historian, thanks to him we know in Poland so much about weapons and the world heard about us as well. He is also great specialist of Persian art (not only weapons, but art overall) while I admit, some other scholars are arguing sometimes with him, but still he is the one who wrote about Turkish and Persian arts wide monographs since many years. I can't judge his work while this regions of knowledge are still terra nova for me, but I allow the thought that he may be wrong.
So - Radu, please don't stop your work. But please give some notes with acknowledgments, where did you get this informations (if only it isn't secret and only if you can) they will be helpful as well. Dear Friends - let's discuss also this great Radu's job - any polemics, or confirms?

Thank you once more
Ragards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

On the axe there is a good chance it might be as early as late 17th I am flexible on that it is the miniature that made me push it a little further, I walk a fine line when aproximate age on the axe thats exactly why I was asking Jans what he thinks about the age of the axe !
My compliments to prof. Zygulski , so far I dont see too much difference between our ideas, as far as "compatibility" if it is to be a display box labeled as "Classic Indo-Persian arms and armour" they are a perfect match but if you shoot for something like "Mughal warrior set - 18th century" then we need to sit down at a round table and talk about it...
Has anyone decrypted the inscription yet?
As far as the miniature isnt it amazing and beautiful that in Persian art even though Islamic, the painting of human figures was not forbidden but even encouraged in splendid images like this, where even though Imam Ali is a crucial character in the Quran as being the messenger and voice of God his physical image and face are not repudiated but embraced making Persia pretty much the only place where pictorial Muslim iconography exists...

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, on tabar zain I went ahead and analysed some more Persian axes, it does seem Safavid (17th century) just like I tought too at the beggining too but then there is the miniature which seem to me it was executed later than that !

[Rick]

I can hear Ruel grinding his teeth all the way here in Massachusetts .

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Rivkin,
Thanks very much for acknowledging my post and observation on the Georgian sabre. My suggestion that the blade on this sword was most likely Chechen was exactly that, a suggestion. I do appreciate your question which suggests a difference in opinion, and I look forward to further discussion in which views held otherwise would provide an opportunity for us all to learn more on these weapons.

My suggestion was based primarily on viewing examples of sword blades made in Chechna in the 19th century as discussed in the book "Chechen Arms" by Isa Askhabov, 2001, and the examples of blades shown of the so termed 'gurda' and 'ters maymal' blades which typically were made for shashkas. On p.46 in the color plate of mountaineers swords there is what appears to be a Georgian sabre of Persian form hilt and crossguard with chainguard that has a blade with similar channeled fullers. The blade of the ters maymal (wolf) shaskas also has certain similarities to this example, while certainly by no means exact.
This is a high quality sword, as I had noted, and of Georgian form. It is known that although there are obvious religious disparities between the Muslim Chechnya and Orthodox Georgia, there are cultural ties that date to early times. The blades found on many Georgian weapons are known to come from Chechnya, and of course trade markets guaged the motif found on these blades. On p.61 (ibid.) it is noted that "...some Ters Maymals had no wolf upon them because it was against the rule in Muslim religion to depict living creatures". On the blade of our example the decorative motif suggests high quality that complies accordingly.
On p.107, the author describes the aul of Bolshiye Ataghi as one of the main centers for manufacture of arms in Chechnya, and that in the latter 19th century this was virtually run by the Tsarist administration.

Since swords for diplomatic gifts were key in these times in Russia, it would not seem unlikely that a Georgian style sword with a blade that carried a motif similar to highly decorated Islamic motif as seen often on many of the shashkas might have been produced in this region for that purpose.

These were primarily the reasons for my thinking on this and as always I look forward to other opinions and observations, especially if resources and examples are provided in support.

As Wolviex has very astutely observed, statements that make bold declarations and pronouncements should include supported references or evidential detail. Although my note on the blade on this sword was intended only as a plausible suggestion, I should have added the reference.
As always, I look forward to hearing differing opinions, and to the supporting data that will hopefully be included.

Best regards,
Jim

[Ian]

Jim:

Thanks so much for your comments. As I have been reading some of the exchanges here, I echo your concerns about referencing the sources for our comments and opinions. Your forthrightness is an example for all of us.

This is particularly important when we are considering items that have already been the subject of discussion by eminent scholars, as Wolviex has noted. These are not village bolos about which we often toss around opinions lightly -- these are beautiful and significant swords from a highly reputable museum, and they deserve our best efforts at scholarly discussion.

That's not to say that humble bolos are unworthy of serious and scholarly discussion.

Ian.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Rivkin

You told me to call you Jim, so if you call me Kirill it's going to be more fair.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

My suggestion was based primarily on viewing examples of sword blades made in Chechna in the 19th century as discussed in the book "Chechen Arms" by Isa Askhabov, 2001, and the examples of blades shown of the so termed 'gurda' and 'ters maymal' blades which typically were made for shashkas. On p.46 in the color plate of mountaineers swords there is what appears to be a Georgian sabre of Persian form hilt and crossguard with chainguard that has a blade with similar channeled fullers. The blade of the ters maymal (wolf) shaskas also has certain similarities to this example, while certainly by no means exact.

Unfortunately I did find some of Askhabov's statements on chechen traditions to be nothing but fairy tales, so I've decided (probably incorrectly) to not buy the book, so I unfortunately do not have it.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is a high quality sword, as I had noted, and of Georgian form. It is known that although there are obvious religious disparities between the Muslim Chechnya and Orthodox Georgia, there are cultural ties that date to early times. The blades found on many Georgian weapons are known to come from Chechnya, and of course trade markets guaged the motif found on these blades. On p.61 (ibid.) it is noted that "...some Ters Maymals had no wolf upon them because it was against the rule in Muslim religion to depict living creatures". On the blade of our example the decorative motif suggests high quality that complies accordingly.
On p.107, the author describes the aul of Bolshiye Ataghi as one of the main centers for manufacture of arms in Chechnya, and that in the latter 19th century this was virtually run by the Tsarist administration.

1. The sword's blade is a little bit too straight to be shashka - it seems to me to be more of a palash (even through there were some extremely straight shashkas, but so straight and broad).

Let's assume it's chechen, than:

a. It's indeed a palash (Nii'sa Tur).
b. Most of chechen palashes were made before 1850, when the production was switched to shashkas (Askhabov ?). Additionally chechen palashes very often do not have cross guards.
c. Chechen palash is also called kaldam - extremely rare weapon, almost always has either a wolf (ters-maimal) or a cross (kaldam) insignia, later models can additionally have gurda (Again, don't have Askhabov on hands, but I think he also writes about it).
d. Assume that actually wolf was avoided due to high islamization. The problem that arises immidiately is - which tribe is the owner ? The problem is that usual owner of palashes are the nighbours of khevsurs - tribe Mjalhista.

Mjalhista were idolaters until very late XIX century (with actual human sacrifices performed here and there). They never backed off from using their idol-symbolics on their weapons, in particular from the Sun (Astvatsaturjan p.166). Shatoi - but they were constantly charged with being Zhukti.
In general all southern, mountain Chechnja was quite pagan at the time, and not on good terms with Shamil and imams.

Bolshyi Atagi - what I can't understand in this case is that there is no "classical" Atagi motiff - very long, almost through the entire blade floral ornament, like Astvatsaturjan page 147. Again Atagi never stopped putting kaldam (cross-like) images on the blades (Astv. 146).

While there are some very straight chechen shashkas (Astv. 142), but they usually don't have a floral motiff like this one (it's better to say I've never seen one), but gurda, kaldam and so on are common. Plus they are not so wide at the hilt, and not so straight (again it's more of a semi-palash).

Next candidate for me would be Dagestan. Straight swords do appear in Dagestan, specifically Lezgin and southern Avar areas, but are not well described (Astv. 145?). However here is the main problem I have with non-georgian origins - it seems that the guard and the blade have motiffs that are very similar and most likely the hand of the same master. However the guard does contain a seven-point star - an intrinsic georgian symbol (sometimes said to symbolize 7 main georgian tribes). I've seen a lot of Dagestani blades with six-point stars, but never with this, very georgian symbol. This and some smaller things may be telling of a georgian origin.

However it does not seem to be a classical khevsurian example, and it seems to be of much more elaborate production. However the possibilities are many, and may be (as you've said) it was made as a gift, and not to actually carry it into khevsuria and start killing people.

I do suspect that in the middle of the image on the blade we will find a signature in arabic, and it well may be that if we read it, it can tell us where the maker was from (it could be a Dagestani, working in Georgia, remembering that at the start of XIX century most of smiths in Georgia were muslim).

However there is one small issue with a gift to Russia theory - russians don't care about georgian symbolics, and stars, they love shashkas (which were a standard weapon in many units), and don't know anything about mountain sabres.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since swords for diplomatic gifts were key in these times in Russia, it would not seem unlikely that a Georgian style sword with a blade that carried a motif similar to highly decorated Islamic motif as seen often on many of the shashkas might have been produced in this region for that purpose.

These were primarily the reasons for my thinking on this and as always I look forward to other opinions and observations, especially if resources and examples are provided in support.

As Wolviex has very astutely observed, statements that make bold declarations and pronouncements should include supported references or evidential detail. Although my note on the blade on this sword was intended only as a plausible suggestion, I should have added the reference.
As always, I look forward to hearing differing opinions, and to the supporting data that will hopefully be included.

Best regards,
Jim

Ah, references, shmeferences. I always like to see some collectors scorch after you point to something "well, that's most likely something modern"
)))

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Originally Posted by Rick

I can hear Ruel grinding his teeth all the way here in Massachusetts .

Et pour qoui, mon cher ami ? Je ne comprend pas ...

[Rick]

Documentation , mon ami , documentation .
Chapter and verse and all that old chap .