A question about boarding pikes

[celtan]

Hi Nando!

In Spanish, a throwing spear would be a jabalina, or javelin in French.

Saludos

Manolo

Originally Posted by fernando

One thing i have difficulty in distinguishing is the difference between pikes (or chuços) and lances (or spears). For a start, we don't have a translation for the term 'spear' in portuguese ... and neither have the Spaniards, i think. Would it sometimes the difference be the length of the haft, considering that the earliest pikes had imense lengths? Or does the difference (also) reside the blade shape ?
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt

[M ELEY]

Thank you gentlemen, for your input. I am very thankful for your information and I hope for my part that I didn't offend with a vulgar word!
Actually, Fernando, it's just about me finding the time. I might take you up on that offer if I find that I can't post. Perhaps my daughter might have to help me! She's good at that sort of thing!

[Gonzalo G]

Although I agree in general terms with the definitions of ‘pica’ and ‘chuzo’, I don’t agree in restricting the meaning of ‘lanza’ to a weapon not used to throw. I think the word ‘lance’ comes from the french languaje and it can have other meaning than the seemingly apparent word in spanish. At first, I feel some restraint in answering to this point, as the word ‘lanza’ in spanish has the same meaning than the word ‘spear’, but including also the meaning on ‘lance’. In other words, Fernando is right in the sense that we don’t have an exclusive generic word to designate only the very long shafted weapon used by cavalry mounted soldiers or knights, but we do have an equivalent word for ‘spear’, and this is the word ‘venablo’, that is, a shorter thrusting and throwing weapon. The word ‘lanza’ in spanish also designates a thrusting and throwing weapon, and its main difference with the venablo seems to be the lenght of the shaft, even though I have never found the respective measures to have a clear understanding of this limits.

According with the Royal Dictionary of the Academy of Spanish Language, the higher authority in this matter, the word ‘lanza’ is not defined in relation with being a thrusting or a throwing weapon, but by its general physical characteristics. I also checked the Salvat Encyclopedia in 12 volumes, because as I always understood, the lanza was indistinctly a thrusting or/and a throwing weapon, and I wanted to be quite sure. I also did not find this differentiating characteristic. Furthermore, the spanish literature and history is full of references in this same direction. Not to be far apart of our subject, we find references to another type of weapon taken by the spaniards from Africa: the lanza gineta or lanza jineta. You can find some references here:

http://xenophongroup.com/EMW/article001.htm

I think it is a shorter shafted weapon compared to the used previously by the cavalry iberic soldier, more longer and less appropriated to the more lightning attacks ‘a la gineta’, that is, to the style of cavalry fight introduced by the berbers into what now is Spain. This older versions, for reasons related with the length of the shaft, were not apt as a throwing weapons. There is even a treatise about fighting ‘a la gineta’, written by a knigh who was member of one of the military spanish cavalry orders, which I previously noted in another thread related with the jineta sword.

I also don’t agree that the word ‘jabalina’ would be more appropriated to designate a war weapon used to throw. This last weapon was used mainly as a hunting weapon and latter as a sport weapon, like the used on the olympic games (javelin). Sometimes is used meaning the weapon the romans called ‘pilium’. With this meaning, jabalina could designate a war weapon, but with some special characteristics, mainly a long narrow point and a short shaft. But there are also a bit longer weapons with wide points, sometimes lanceolated, used as thrusting or/and throwing weapon. It must be pointed out that the word ‘lanza’ in spanish also means ‘throw’, and to throw a stone would be said ‘lanzar una piedra’, thus the word used to name this weapon. In spanish we also have another word taken form the berbers: ‘azagaya’, which is used to designate a short war weapon, equivalent to the jabalina.

The weapon with long shaft ended in a pike and with an axe at its side, specially in the form of a half moon, is called in spanish ‘alabarda’, a halberd.

You can consult online the Royal Dictionary of the Academy of Spanish Language, and another dicionaries in spanish, and translate them using also online instruments, as Babel Fish and the one provided by Google:

http://www.rae.es/rae.html

Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent post Gonzalo!!! Well worded and thought out with greatly supported data and observations........textbook my friend!

From what little I know of the history of lances as spears, it is great to read through the great discussion here.

From earlier discussions on the lance in the frontier regions of Mexico and early American southwest, these were often the weapon of choice as ammunition was typically scarce. These were shorter stabbing type lances from my understanding, and it seems that the American Indian tribes may have adopted the weapon style and techniques in use from the Spanish.

Manolo and Fernando thank you for the great discourse on the linguistics concerning these weapons. I think terminology and the semantics in describing weaponry often presents considerably interesting challenges.

All the best,
Jim

[aiontay]

While ammunition certainly was scarce in New Mexico during the Spanish colonial era, I'm not sure that is the only reason lances were favored. I remember watching an episode of "Gangland" on the History Channel recently where they described an incident where several members of a gang attacked a party held by a rival gang with automatic rifles and pistols. Even though they were shooting (on foot) into a crowd of people, they completely missed the people they were trying to kill. The only person killed was the pregnant wife of one of the rival gang, and she was killed by a stray bullet.

Now imagine trying to shoot accurately from a galloping horse at another person on a galloping horse while riding across broken terrain with a muzzle loading carbine or pistol, or a single action cap and ball revolver for that matter. I think your accuracy would suffer quite a bit. For that matter, during the Revoluntionary War there were several occasssions, for example the capture by the Americans of a British redoubt at Yorktown, where commander explicitly ordered their men to rely solely on bayonets, ot loaded guns. Even in situations where men were on foot in massed formations, as opposed to the loose, small groups on horseback common on Spanish frontier, "spears" were the prefered weapon in some situations because they were more reliable.

Also, at least in New Mexico there were the cibolaros (sp?), the Hsipanic buffalo hunters who went on extended buffalo hunts using bows and arrows and lances. Maybe the use of bows and lances was due to lack of ammunition, but it may have been because of the ineffectiveness of gun fire on horseback. As Joseph Jablow notes in his book "The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade Relations" several tribes banned the use of guns in buffalo hunts due to misfires and stray bullets. Now I realize hunts and battles are not the same, but I would point out that Plains battle tactics, like Mongol tactics, derived in part from group hunting tactics. I suspect that many of these ideas were adopted by the Spanish settlers.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you very much, Jim. As ever, you are very indulgent and motivating with the modest participations of other forumites. I feel that the spear also have many advantages over the saber, and when you spent your only shooth from a gun difficult to reload during a cavalry charge, it is the better option. Mainly if your enemy does not have guns, or have them in small quantities.

Aiontay, before the use of the modern cartridge, the one shot cavalry carabines or similar weapons were not accurate. I agree with you about the use of hunting practices in the battlefield. The sniper and its camouflage is one of this derivations.

[M ELEY]

Finally...
Not the greatest pics, but...
My question is, is this a colonial Spanish lance, a Rev War spear or a small boarding pike sans langets (I'm not too concerned with this, as many of the American pikes didn't have side straps). The head is classic diamond shaped, the wood wormy ash (used for lances and pikes) shaved down to bare wood, the neck around this piece has the traditional spiraling pattern and the small "X's" decorations associated with colonial Span pieces. Old museum numbers in white paint. The butt of the shaft is flat, no metal cap. Head is 9", total with shaft 65". I'm told that boarding pike hafts were either painted black/brown or "shaved" down to bare wood as this piece is.