Scottish Late Medieval 'Claidheamh - mor' Swords

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim,

Although it is hard to prove I think that these signs are, as you put it, a grouping of actual symbols rather than runes.
At times when craftsmen like stone masons could mostly neither read nor write they had to rely on simple symbols to mark their daily work and thus prove how far they got. After all, we know from documents that they got their daily pay based on their individual signs left on the stones in the building.

Starting from this surmise I should put forward as a thesis that these signs generally were a sort of a mixture of simple symbolized cyphers and initials primarily used by illiterate persons as I tried to point out in my former thread on my big bronze haquebut wall gun, Nuremberg, ca. 1515-20. I repost both the sign on the hook of that gun and a woodcut by Erhard Schön, Nuremberg, ca. 1530 depicting a tavern scene with such simple markings on the black board, representing the respective bills of the guests.

Michael

[Matchlock]

I forgot to add that of course the symbols in the makers' mark and on the stones seem to be much more personal identifications than the stylized numberings on my wall gun and the tavern board.

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Well placed observation Ward, there are distinct similarities in many of the tamgas, which rather than alphabetic characters are more of a 'brand' type concept. These were Turkic based symbols used throughout the steppes tribes and became well established in many cultural groups of Eastern Europe.
The Polish people take a great deal of pride in thier ancestries from many of these groups, including the Sarmatians, whose tamgas are often seen in the devices in Polish heraldry.

I believe however, that the runic type symbols are more in vertically situated geometric linears, and many of these medieval symbols that developed into the type marking used in the Masonic and other guild and individual marks may have some degree of similarity. These marks were customized to other family members and associates often by the addition of simple marks in strategic location on subsequent marks. I think was much in the way coats of arms developed in compexity as more charges and devices were added.

The tamgas are really a fascinating subject, just like heraldry and other types of symbolism. I recall some research years ago in which a tamga was in niello on the scabbard mounts of a Chechen shashka, and seeing many of the examples of Sarmatian and other groups including Tatars in trying to match somewhat the one I was focused on.

Excellent example Michael of the marks used by Masons and how these were used as sort of a basis for makers marks. I was surprised to learn that the use of these markings in architectural work was from Byzantine masons who had come into building some European structures, I think it was St. Marks in Venice. I'm sure there are widely diversified views on the accuracy of that...we'll see

I really like the tavern 'tab' example!! Actually it seems those are more 'tally' marks, as the use of lines drawn across a base line in keeping count. In the types of marking used by makers, the numeric count of lines in varying postition were consistantly applied and recognized as to a certain maker.
If these marks in the tavern were posted, and a separate tally applied next to that mark, then its different.

I really do love the study of markings and symbolism, and its exciting to share ideas with you and Ward here!!! Thank you so much guys,

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

... of fine provenance, the grip 19th century.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Enjoy!

Michael

[fearn]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I forgot to add that of course the symbols in the makers' mark and on the stones seem to be much more personal identifications than the stylized numberings on my wall gun and the tavern board.

Michael

Hi Michael and all,

I don't know anything about tamgas, but some of those look like Celtic ogham symbols. For instance, the harquebus has an Ogham S on it.

One thing is that the oghams only go up to five cross-hatches, and the Celts certainly didn't have a monopoly on using cross-hatches to convey information, as all of you rightfully noted.

Best

F

[Matchlock]

Hi Fearn,

Thanks a lot for bringing the notable Ogham script into the discussion.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Fearn, thank you so much for mentioning the Ogham script! I had forgotten what an important thread this was (thank you again Michael!!!) and its great to return to some discussion on weapons originally intended to be looked into here. While we always have fascinating topics, these fantastic swords are of course one of my favorites ....and the subject of markings my obsession!!

Thanks again guys,

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14399

[BerberDagger]

Matchlock , where do you find the page of the marks you posted here ? I ve a eastern european knight sword bought some years ago from a well known english dealer ... it have exactly this type of inscription .

Can you let me known the resource ?
thank you