Help with talismanic inscriptions?

kai · 14th February 2009, 01:57 PM

Congrats, Michael!

The blade looks Sulu to me - hilt possibly Maguindanao?

This "star" motif seems to be related to the smaller "stars"/"bird footprints" sometmes seen on older Moro blades. A thumbnail of a really nice example is published in vZ (sundang)...

The small peg for holding the scabbard in the sash seems to be quite common with these Maguindanao scabbards.

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 14th February 2009, 04:24 PM

Maybe I was too fast with describing the blade as Maranao?
I went for the Cato classification but I agree that the rest looks more Sulu.
On the van Z thumb nail picture I can't really see if it's stars or the more common dots?
Do you have any other reference picture?

Michael

Tim Simmons · 14th February 2009, 05:26 PM

I do not know if this has any relevance but flowers-gardens-paradise, and stars-heaven, are all often elements in Islamic carpet design and other decoration.

Spunjer · 14th February 2009, 09:49 PM

hi michael,
thanks for posting that.
are the stars in any particular pattern going down the blade?
as per the scabbard; prolly not original to the blade...

Battara · 15th February 2009, 01:07 AM

I agree with Kai in that the blade looks Sulu but the rest is Maguindanao.

Also the "fingernail" symbols are an old okir motif, used in both Maranao/Maguindanao and Sulu pieces. These seemed to have migrated to the Lumad tribes as well who live near the Maguindanao and Maranao. The tool that makes this symbol is easy to make and common to chasing tools all over Indonesia and the PI.

VVV · 15th February 2009, 08:29 AM

Thanks all for comments,

On the "stars" they are single on the katik area and then along the fuller it's 5-formations with a single star inbetween (1+5+1+5+1 etc.).
On the scabbard and hilt I also suspect that they are later than the blade.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 15th February 2009, 10:09 AM

This link is interesting. There is a warning not to see what you want to see, {scroll down to sub title "The Paradise Show"} but this kind of imagery appears frequently on these weapons. We know the back ground and setting, also that the peoples are Muslim, that weapons, warriors, jihad, death and martyrdom often go hand in hand with faith and paradise. Mottos and talismans of a religous nature are common on edged weapons the world over. It is not unreasonable to consider exploring possible links to "higher?" depictions of paradise in Islamic art and architecture.

http://www.sonic.net/~tallen/palmtree/ip.html

Spunjer · 15th February 2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks all for comments,

On the "stars" they are single on the katik area and then along the fuller it's 5-formations with a single star inbetween (1+5+1+5+1 etc.).
On the scabbard and hilt I also suspect that they are later than the blade.

Michael

thank you!
another angle could be perhaps it's not not talismanic, rather just some patriotic decor.

15th February 2009, 10:09 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 6,024	This link is interesting. There is a warning not to see what you want to see, {scroll down to sub title "The Paradise Show"} but this kind of imagery appears frequently on these weapons. We know the back ground and setting, also that the peoples are Muslim, that weapons, warriors, jihad, death and martyrdom often go hand in hand with faith and paradise. Mottos and talismans of a religous nature are common on edged weapons the world over. It is not unreasonable to consider exploring possible links to "higher?" depictions of paradise in Islamic art and architecture. http://www.sonic.net/~tallen/palmtree/ip.html Last edited by Tim Simmons; 15th February 2009 at 10:44 AM.

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14th February 2009, 01:57 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Congrats, Michael! The blade looks Sulu to me - hilt possibly Maguindanao? This "star" motif seems to be related to the smaller "stars"/"bird footprints" sometmes seen on older Moro blades. A thumbnail of a really nice example is published in vZ (sundang)... The small peg for holding the scabbard in the sash seems to be quite common with these Maguindanao scabbards. Regards, Kai

14th February 2009, 04:24 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Maybe I was too fast with describing the blade as Maranao? I went for the Cato classification but I agree that the rest looks more Sulu. On the van Z thumb nail picture I can't really see if it's stars or the more common dots? Do you have any other reference picture? Michael

14th February 2009, 05:26 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 6,024	I do not know if this has any relevance but flowers-gardens-paradise, and stars-heaven, are all often elements in Islamic carpet design and other decoration.

14th February 2009, 09:49 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hi michael, thanks for posting that. are the stars in any particular pattern going down the blade? as per the scabbard; prolly not original to the blade...

15th February 2009, 01:07 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,416	I agree with Kai in that the blade looks Sulu but the rest is Maguindanao. Also the "fingernail" symbols are an old okir motif, used in both Maranao/Maguindanao and Sulu pieces. These seemed to have migrated to the Lumad tribes as well who live near the Maguindanao and Maranao. The tool that makes this symbol is easy to make and common to chasing tools all over Indonesia and the PI.

15th February 2009, 08:29 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks all for comments, On the "stars" they are single on the katik area and then along the fuller it's 5-formations with a single star inbetween (1+5+1+5+1 etc.). On the scabbard and hilt I also suspect that they are later than the blade. Michael