Victorian Wall Decoration?

kisak · 28th January 2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I would be very interested to see if someone can provide some exact measurements for comparison.

As measurements varied quite a bit between swords of the same model, here's a few different measurements from Svenska Blankvapen del 2 and White Arms of the Royal Armoury.

m/1761: Blade length 100.2 cm, width at the base 4.5cm
m/1775: 94.8/5 cm
m/1775: 92.5/4.4 cm
m/1778: 101.3/4.5 cm
m/1778: 100/4.4 cm, 1350g (No weight given for the others.)

The m/1778 is supposed to be an m/1775 with part of the basket cut off, which is why I included it here.

celtan · 28th January 2009, 03:47 AM

Mine has a 35.5" blade. (~ 90 cm).

BTW, Robert. I owe you the data for the POB of my Spanish Ropera/Rapiere.

It is 3.25" apically from the xguard.

Best

Man

Atlantia · 28th January 2009, 04:42 AM

Robert,
The POB seems a little forward on your sword, which is clearly due to the rather long and heavy blade.
You can see from Manuels small-sword, and its much narrower lighter blade, it can be offset by a much smaller handle (and shorter).
Small-swords with that type of blade were used throughout Europe, and many look very similar. I assume the heavier blade might also have become quite far-flung in its useage.

The very long handle would seem to me to have two obvious advantages: grip and offsetting that long heavy blade.

If the sword was just a rehilted older blade for decorative purposes then why worry about either factor? Why not just make it look as much like a Rapier as you can and give it a standard size handle which would look more in keeping?

But the distinctive blade and its unusual point is exactly the same as the one in Kisaks picture?

I would think that although a little point heavy still, it WAS made to use.
Just my thoughts, and let me remind you, I'm often wrong! lol

Robert · 28th January 2009, 04:56 AM

Gene, Manuel and Kisak, I can't thank you enough for all your help in identifying this sword. To answer Genes questions, the pommel is rock solid tight so I would guess that the tang had been extended and yes there are still traces of silver paint on the guard. I got out my trusty steel measure and the measurements are, Length = 100.4 cm and Width = 4.6 cm. These do not match exactly but I think are definitely close enough to the ones listed by Kisak to figure out what the blade was from originally. As to the POB I'm sure it would change if the wire wrap was restored to the grip. And to the story I was given when I purchased this, with the description she gave on the other swords her Uncle was supposed to have brought back and the story about her children and grand children's use of the sword I found it quite believable. Who doesn't like a good story?

Gene, I must have been typing this at the same time you were posting your reply.

Thank you for posting another example of a sword similar in its none standard appearance.

Robert

Robert · 29th January 2009, 02:43 AM

OK I have a few more questions about this sword.
#1 Should I try to clean it anymore than I already have and if so what would be the best way to do it and what would be the best things to use? After stripping off the paint I used 0000 steel wool and machine oil to get it where it is now.
#2 Should I try to re-wrap the wire on the grip? I do have a couple of small pieces of the original wrap, a small piece of twisted or braided wire and a piece of solid wire.
#3 Where should the POB be on this?
Thank you all for any answers that you can offer to my questions.

Robert

Atlantia · 29th January 2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

OK I have a few more questions about this sword.
#1 Should I try to clean it anymore than I already have and if so what would be the best way to do it and what would be the best things to use? After stripping off the paint I used 0000 steel wool and machine oil to get it where it is now.
#2 Should I try to re-wrap the wire on the grip? I do have a couple of small pieces of the original wrap, a small piece of twisted or braided wire and a piece of solid wire.
#3 Where should the POB be on this?
Thank you all for any answers that you can offer to my questions.

Robert

Hi Robert.

1. Cleaning.
I think it loks fine already, a few areas look like they need a little more but it seems generally fine. Soooo, a little more of what you've done on the darker metal of the hilt/guard probobly wont hurt. Stick with the w-wool and machine oil, Its a fairly gently way to do it.
I'd say if you are going to do it, then identify the 'solder' or whatever it is first. If its the remains of the aluminium paint you mentioned then it can come off, if its a hard solder then you'll want to be careful if you continue the cleaning so you don't flex any of the joins and crack the solder.
Whatever you decide, I would say do it by hand. Don't be tempted to have a bash with your Dremel or anything powered.
With cleaning, you can always do a little bit more if you need to, but once you clean too harshly or leave grinding marks etc it can be difficult to disguise.

2. Re-wrapping.
This is a question of personal tastes.
Can you p[ost a pic of the bits of wire you removed?
Many very fine old swords have lost their wire wrap. Yours looks fine the way it is.
If you re-wrap it, then it needs to be done completely in keeping or it could make the sword look more like a repro/mix-n-match.
If you want to do it, then I would be happy to search my books for pictures of wired hilts that might help.

Is the tang visible in that split BTW?

3. POB.

OK, well I guess we have to decide if it was intended for 'fencing' on foot or its heavy construction was more for thrusting from horseback.
I tend to think the heavy blade and long handle mean it would be best for thrusting from horseback.
The POB on your sword is a little far forward (towards the point) for a rapier, (I would expect it to be more around 4 inches from the quillon block), and the handle and size would make is a little clumsy.
From horseback I can see it being fine for it to be a little further forward 5-6 inches.

So, my 'bottom line' views.
I love it.
A little more cleaning, but dont rush it.
Handle, fine as it is, so perhaps re-wrap if you can find the perfect wire to do it but it really doesn't matter.
POB, fine.

Just my opinons

Robert · 29th January 2009, 03:21 PM

Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces.

To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked.
After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

Atlantia · 30th January 2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces.

To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked.
After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help.

Robert

You are more than welcome Robert.
Does the glimpse of tang give any more clues?

Atlantia · 28th January 2009, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

As measurements varied quite a bit between swords of the same model, here's a few different measurements from Svenska Blankvapen del 2 and White Arms of the Royal Armoury.

m/1761: Blade length 100.2 cm, width at the base 4.5cm
m/1775: 94.8/5 cm
m/1775: 92.5/4.4 cm
m/1778: 101.3/4.5 cm
m/1778: 100/4.4 cm, 1350g (No weight given for the others.)

The m/1778 is supposed to be an m/1775 with part of the basket cut off, which is why I included it here.

wow! Great research Kisak.
Robert? How does that compare?

Just been looking through some books.
Nothing the same, but there are some great examples of 'unusual' rapier-esq swords with similarities.
Here's a 'basket hilt' with an eccentric guard and medium weightcentrally ridged blade:

28th January 2009, 04:56 AM	#4
Robert (deceased) Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, Manuel and Kisak, I can't thank you enough for all your help in identifying this sword. To answer Genes questions, the pommel is rock solid tight so I would guess that the tang had been extended and yes there are still traces of silver paint on the guard. I got out my trusty steel measure and the measurements are, Length = 100.4 cm and Width = 4.6 cm. These do not match exactly but I think are definitely close enough to the ones listed by Kisak to figure out what the blade was from originally. As to the POB I'm sure it would change if the wire wrap was restored to the grip. And to the story I was given when I purchased this, with the description she gave on the other swords her Uncle was supposed to have brought back and the story about her children and grand children's use of the sword I found it quite believable. Who doesn't like a good story? Gene, I must have been typing this at the same time you were posting your reply. Thank you for posting another example of a sword similar in its none standard appearance. Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 28th January 2009 at 05:27 AM.

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28th January 2009, 03:47 AM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Mine has a 35.5" blade. (~ 90 cm). BTW, Robert. I owe you the data for the POB of my Spanish Ropera/Rapiere. It is 3.25" apically from the xguard. Best Man

28th January 2009, 04:42 AM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Robert, The POB seems a little forward on your sword, which is clearly due to the rather long and heavy blade. You can see from Manuels small-sword, and its much narrower lighter blade, it can be offset by a much smaller handle (and shorter). Small-swords with that type of blade were used throughout Europe, and many look very similar. I assume the heavier blade might also have become quite far-flung in its useage. The very long handle would seem to me to have two obvious advantages: grip and offsetting that long heavy blade. If the sword was just a rehilted older blade for decorative purposes then why worry about either factor? Why not just make it look as much like a Rapier as you can and give it a standard size handle which would look more in keeping? But the distinctive blade and its unusual point is exactly the same as the one in Kisaks picture? I would think that although a little point heavy still, it WAS made to use. Just my thoughts, and let me remind you, I'm often wrong! lol

29th January 2009, 02:43 AM	#5
Robert (deceased) Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK I have a few more questions about this sword. #1 Should I try to clean it anymore than I already have and if so what would be the best way to do it and what would be the best things to use? After stripping off the paint I used 0000 steel wool and machine oil to get it where it is now. #2 Should I try to re-wrap the wire on the grip? I do have a couple of small pieces of the original wrap, a small piece of twisted or braided wire and a piece of solid wire. #3 Where should the POB be on this? Thank you all for any answers that you can offer to my questions. Robert

29th January 2009, 03:21 PM	#7
Robert (deceased) Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Gene, thank you for your advice on the cleaning of this piece. You can rest assured that I would NEVER under any circumstances use any motorized tool in the cleaning of any of my pieces. To answer your question, yes the tang can be seen where the hilt is cracked. After thinking about it I have decided to leave the hilt wrapping as is. I don't think that it could be done properly with out removing the fittings which would require grinding the riveted end of the tang to remove of the pommel. I will try to clean the remaining paint and some of the rust from the joints and crevasses of the hilt. Thank you again for all your help. Robert