Non European forces proving themselves Vs European military might

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by celtan

Gonzalo,

Man is a glorified animal. In an ideal world, wars wouldn't happen. Ours is not one.

History repeatedly shows that when Man becomes too civilized, those who are less will take up his word, and give him a too-close shave.

Wars and man go hand-in-hand. It is to our own benefit that the victor should always be the most advanced civilization, or the least savage one, take your pick. Pol Pot and the Serbian conflics come to mind.

Can you imagine a world with Irak, Iran, China or Russia holding the trump-cards? I realize we are not perfect, but side-by-side , we downright look like Sisters-Of-Mercy by comparison.

International Conventions try to make wars, not good, but less bad...
Guerrillas ignore these kinds of arrangements. Just see what happened in Spain after the French invasion. Most of the guerrillas were in for their own profit, criminals with a "patent de corsair" against both French and "afrancesados", the latter being usually people of means.

Professional soldiers don't enjoy killing civilians, nor make them targets...usually. Civilian warriors, OTOH, are characterized for being extremely cruel, torturing, robbing and killing prisoners. Look at Uganda, Afghanistan, Spain, Somalia, Serbia-Bosnia, Irak, the French "Resistance", the Yugoslavian partisans, etc...

Dresden was an unforgivable crime-of-war, the city was already declared open and there were no German troops within. The attacks on London's Docks were not attacks against either population or city, albeit a damaged german fighter-bomber did release its bomb load over London unwittingly. This happened while being attacked, trying to gain manouvrability to shake off its pursuers, and its pilot was courtmartialed.

The British knew this, but nonetheless went on to begin the raids, the Germans responded in kind. This was actually good for the RAF, since it relieved german bombing pressure on their downright-beaten fighter aerodromes.

All in all, the amount of bombs dropped against British civilian targets by the Germans was the tiniest fraction of that dropped by of British and Americans. Studies done after the war proved that these actions actually helped the Nazis better control the German population, by putting them in a defensive mind mode.

To boot, industrially-wise, the german factories output at the end of the war was higher than it had ever been, proving strategic bombing didn't achieve what it was meant to do (that is, beyond massacring the city dwellers). I recall a survivor telling me how allied fighters (Jabos) would specifically target the civilian food lines, diving with the engine off to catch the people unaware.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki (The most pro-western city in Japan) were nuked, not only to prevent further allied invasion forces casualties, but also to scare off the soviets, which were conventionally-wise far more powerful than the combined allied forces at the end of WWII. The allies were aware of Russian plans to invade all Europe, and that their Tank divisions were already in place. So, they made the Russians believe they had more than two nukes, by using one after the other in rapid sucession. Stalin fell for it, and the invasion was postponed.

Myself, I believe that the US won the Vietnam War, then left South Vietnam fall afterwards simply because SV had become economically-unfeasible and politically untenable. The main reason it fell was simply because Nixon stopped the economic aid required to maintain its military forces. The war had left SV rotten to the core, without principles or common identity, unlike South Korea. SV Military was more like a group of independent Daimyos than anything else, often doing business with their own NV enemies...

Wars never end or accomplish what they are supossed to do, but as instruments of change, they are the fastest. And remember, they have always been an extension of economics. If its worthwhile, a suitable reason will always be found.

Nuff'sed


M

Man can be more than a glorified animal. It is in our hand to change it. Civilization has anything to do with war. More supposedly civilized nation attacked less civilized nations, as in the colonization and conquest process begun by europeans in the 15-16th Century. Less civilized nations attacked more civilized nations, as in the arab and mongol conquest, or the barbarian invassion over Europe which ended the Roman Empire. It is a matter of reviewing history to see behind the myths.

Surely you think germans respected war conventions and made "civilized" wars, and guerrillas did not. I don´t know in the case of Spain, but in Mexico guerrillas were fought against french invaders very cleanly. But crime and disorder always born in the midst of wars, wherever there are areas not controlled by any side. Serbia was not a guerrilla war, and all civil wars are usually the more cruel. Uganda et al? That is the result and the fault of european colonization, which traced arbitrary frontiers engulfing in the same countries bitter tribal enemies and used to incite divisions among them to rule more easily. And at the end of the colonial domination, almost all the countries were left in the midst of civil wars. Just se what happened with Latin America when we were free from the spaniard domination: all the 19th Century passed among civil wars, in the emptiness of centralized power, political institutions of our own, and lack of national agreements. Thanks to the "civilized" colonization and domination made by the europeans.

The Middle East conflicts? All becomes to oil and the intervention of foreign powers. Irak NEVER taked sides with Iran. They were sweared enemies. In 1977, they begun a war wich lasted 10 years, and Saddam Hussein was used, supported and armed by the industrial powers, who wanted to regain the lost control over Iran since the deposition of the Sha Mohammed Reza Pahlevi. Just review that part of history. There is no such thing as goods against bads, friends and enemies: there are only interests. Plain, vulgar and pedestrian interests. Interests from the same secular imperlialistic elites in the world. Interest from the same local secular elites, allied with the former ones. To think otherwise is to live in the midst of the myths produced in the Cold War or the fascism. And to be naive...what civilization are we talking about?

As to the rest of the world, we don´t want wars, or imperialisms from any side, no matter if it comes from Russia, China, Europe, Mars or anywhere. Foreign intervention usually (but no always) only exacerbates conflicts. Do you have the slightiest idea what thinks the rest of the world outside of some few industrialied countries? I mean, outside of their interested economic or political elites? In Mexico, the president tried to send troops to Irak, and he was obliged to turn back by public pressure, in spite all the inmense power mexican presidents have....interesting, isn´t it?

Do you serious believe that south vietnamese villages supported VC by fear, and prefered to support the corrupt and opressive south vietnamese government and the foreign troops? Just read what the own USA historians wrotte about it. But VC came from the villages, and they were villagers, not professional soldiers from any government. And the war was lost because the use of the above said political means. War was politically untenable, and vietnamese knew it, and manipulate it. They did not have a military strategy: they had a whole strategy concept. And the war became a failure, anyway.

Surely you know that Lidice was not in France, and that french partisans were do allowed to make guerrilla warfare and to take control of the liberated country. As italian, yugoslavean and russian operated just to the end of the german occupation.

As for the jews, they use the same methods used by everybody. I can give you more recen samples, even more near of you. For one side you say the germans used to be better behaved when they could, and latter you say the jews are as bad as the germans...by the way, did you know that the greater cities of northern Mexico (I live in one of them) were founded by spanish jews, latter burn alive by common spaniards, which pretended those cities were never founded, and "refounded" them again, (symbollically, of course), and then proceed to make an "ethnical-religious cleansing"?.....just another off-topic.

As for the rest. it is only war progaganda not supported in facts. As false as the supposedly "amenian genocide", the "kurd genocide", the russian invassion of all Europe (as you know, Europe and Asia were parted by the allieds in established areas of influence, mutually agreed, despite of the reticence of Great Britain, and only in Berlin or to the respect of some of Japan´s few small islands was a little trouble), or another casus belli invented as a pretext or to discredit some enemy. But this is clear for many countries, with no interests in the game but their own, nor raised under communist or fascist dictadorships. Because it is not in our own benefit that more "civilized" countries won the wars (who decides which one is more "civilized"?), but to have no wars, as everybody looses in every war. Of course, exept those who make business with wars...and they do not send their sons to make them, but somebody´s elses...

But I invite you to leave political discussion out of this forum, because there are interests which cannot be reconciliated, and everybody has his interest and his ideas, and this is not a political forum. War and politics should be no discussed here, because there is always a political and ideological interest, party, prejudice or presumption which is lesive in some way to other forumites, as I tried in some way to express it at the beginning of this thread, which I know in advance Atlantia begun in perfect good faith. I don´t like wars made against any party or country, only accept them as historical facts, or as an act of legitime defense against foreign invaders. My heros are Buddha, Jesus the Christ and Mahatma Ghandi. Those were men of value, who tried, against all odds and without weapons, to take the humanity to a superior level, making a living example of their pure beliefs. Sometimes at the omnious presence of a reat personal risk. Not strange many of this kind of man are killed by intolerant, glorified animals. From my side, I leave this discussion, and apologize if I offended anybody with my words. I will appreciate your understanding.