Jambiya

[spiral]

Conogre thats very interesting about the girafe horn as Ive always been someting of a sceptic about it, I presume its a hollow shell of horn that is over the boney skull protrubrences then?

Is it then realy large & thick enough to be carved to the shape of the jambiya handles?

I am still slighty skeptical but would love to have my doubts eliminated.

Can you source any detailed pix of of the sectioned giraffe horn? or something else to help convince me?

This is something I would love to learn more about.

Spiral

[Rick]

If I recall correctly Artzi had some examples used as shamshir scales .
Possibly in the afterglow of victory from winning that stunning kris he will share an example or two ....

[Aurangzeb]

Hi all!

The handle conducts static electricity.I found out in an odd manner,today while my cat was charged with static(don't ask me how?).I rubbed te handle across it's back and shocked myself with the handle after rubbing the cat with it!My cat,Catbert liked it!It is not p0latic I am sure,to heavy and has faults and a piny smell.

bye

[Conogre]

Your last description pretty well sews up this particular piece being amber then, Aurangzeb.
Amber can be confusing because it comes in many different "shades", from almost colorless and nearly as transparent as glass to completley opaque and almost a mustardy brown that looks like solid dried putty.
Most fossilized materials are created as the original substance, bone, shell, scale or even feather is gradually replaced by minerals as a "cast", while amber, as far as I know, is unique in that it's the original substance that is extremely compressed into a super hardness over the millenia.
Tom, giraffe horns are exactly like rhino horns in that there is no bony protruberance from the skull other than a rounded bone "bump" that serves as the anchoring base, with the rest just compressed "hair" that grows into a hard, solid mass that's definitely not hollow .
While the texture IS denser at the very center, it's all the same material and is carvable.....to the best of my knowledge, giraffe horns probably max out at about 8"-10" long and about 3" thick on very old bulls.
Giraffe horn, by the way, is different from that of a rhinocerous in that it culminates in an expanded round knob at the end, while on the rhino, of course, can grow to great lengths and become extremely thin and pointed, deadly when driven by the mass and power of the living animal......I've seen film of them driving it into the heavy body of a Landrover or even hooking it under a fender and visibly lifting the vehicle without the horn itself breaking, a testament to how strong "hair" can be.
To the best of my knowledge, these are the only two living animals with this type of horn, while some extinct relatives had gigantic versions.....one of the brontotheres had a nose horn that exceded living rhinos in length and divided at the apex into two huge rounded masses very much like those of a giraffe, living pile drivers in their time.....now THOSE would have made some hilts!
Mike

[tom hyle]

Thanks, Conogre; good explanation. I suppose it not being technically horn is why it's hard to find as "horn" when reading about giraffes. All horns are, AFAIK, modified/grown-together hair, and I've never been clear on what basis the distinction of "true" horn is drawn; I suspect it involves a naked-eye "hairiness" of appearance; another horn often called compressed hair/not true horn is pronghorn horns, and they are largely hollow with a bone center, not unlike cattle horns.

[Mark]

A "true" horn is a cutical grown around a bone (and thus is hollow to varying degrees), while fused hair such, as giraffe and rhino horn, does not have an underlying bone.

While we are at it, antlers are boney growths with an abscission line along which they separate from the skull, and are shed and re-grown seasonally.

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

I have learned a lot, but, I am not quite ready to let this one go yet. Both amber and plastic can be electrically charged. I don't know about horn. The other possibility is that this is copal (an immature amber). Aurangzeb, is there any way to get a closer look at the end (end on), to see if it is grainy?
I will include first a picture of giraffe horn jewelry and a picture of Zanzibar copal below. If anyone has any pictures of giraffe horn I would love to see them.

Jeff

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Mark

A "true" horn is a cutical grown around a bone (and thus is hollow to varying degrees), while fused hair such, as giraffe and rhino horn, does not have an underlying bone.

While we are at it, antlers are boney growths with an abscission line along which they separate from the skull, and are shed and re-grown seasonally.

As a biologist I have chip in at this point on the giraffe horn debate . I cannot define what a 'horn' is in any scientific way as there are many types of external growths commonly termed horns, which , as has been pointed out, derive in many different ways. However if the question is : 'Is a giraffe horn of a similar structure to a rhino horn ?' , then the answer is 'no'. Giraffe horns are properly termed ossicones . Only giraffes, okapi ( and their extinct relatives ) have ossicones. Ossicones are derived from ossified cartilage, ie cartilage which has becomed hardened through calcification . Ossicones remain covered in skin and fur throughout the life of the animal. Rhino horn by contrast is made of keratin ( the substance which forms hair and nails for example ) and does not have a fur or skin covering . In short , the horns of the giraffe and the rhino are structurally and biological completely different . However what I found very interesting was Ibrahiim's Arabian word for rhino which sounds somewhat like giraffe ... might not this explain how the myth of giraffe horn parts of weapons became established .. a simple mistranslation ?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Conogre

Your last description pretty well sews up this particular piece being amber then, Aurangzeb.
Amber can be confusing because it comes in many different "shades", from almost colorless and nearly as transparent as glass to completley opaque and almost a mustardy brown that looks like solid dried putty.

Hi Mike and the others forumites
just to confuse a little bit more the situation ...
you have two (2) kind of false amber stone
- "kahraman"; Karaman is a town in south central Turkey
- "faturan" basically made from amber powder mixed with resin, kind of bakelite, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faturan

both are very well know from Turkish, because they are the main producer on 18th or 19th century
you could have advantage to read the explanations of ;
http://www.efosjewelry.com/amber_info.html

jointed pic's to illustrated my comments

à +

Dom

ps/ don't be upset against me
I put a lot of time to understand and know these particular materials,
but now .. I'm acute on this subject,
I suspect that the handle of the jambiya is in "Kaharaman"

[DaveS]

Several years ago i had a jambiya that had a giraffe horn handle. It
was a honey colored handle with small gold nails driven in the front.
Unfortunately it was stolen a few years ago but before that i had a chance
to show it to a man from Africa who has a lot of experience with this kind of
thing and he told me it was not the horns of the giraffe, which he says are
very porous, and therefore not good for use as a handle material, but what
is used is the hoof which works well. He said he likes it much better than
rhino horn for handles..........Dave

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Several years ago i had a jambiya that had a giraffe horn handle. It
was a honey colored handle with small gold nails driven in the front.
Unfortunately it was stolen a few years ago but before that i had a chance
to show it to a man from Africa who has a lot of experience with this kind of
thing and he told me it was not the horns of the giraffe, which he says are
very porous, and therefore not good for use as a handle material, but what
is used is the hoof which works well. He said he likes it much better than
rhino horn for handles..........Dave

Salaams Dave ~ Interesting about the hoof of Giraffe. I will do some searching on this to see if I have missed something ... as I have noted the peculiar wording in Oman for Rhino is Z'raff and I was once told that Giraffe hoof was used as hilt horn... Your story bears out that.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.