A Plastic Keris? for comment.

empu kumis · 13th April 2005, 08:55 AM

Hello Kerislovers,

since many years I follow the footsteps of faked and new kerisses but this is an most interesting handle, wrangka and pendok. The question is, are they made for faking ore just using new materials. The artistic quality seems to me not so bad exept the pendok and mendak. The wrangka has an form almost like the one in:

Sharum Bin Yub B.A.
Senjata 2 Pesaka Melayu, Keris dan Senjata 2 Pendek 1967 page 45

The blade may be even older then 19 cent. but age does not make good quality.

In general plastik in Indonesia for handles I have seen the first times in the late 1980ties. As BSMStar wrote about the bubbles are the traitors.

This handle I have found in 1989 in Solo. The black lines indicate the positions of several bubbles. The close up shows better.

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by empu kumis

The blade may be even older then 19 cent. but age does not make good quality.

Hi empu kumis,

Thanks for the feedback. The age of the keris is the area I a weak in... the peski tapers to almost a point from wear, and the wear on the blade (from etching?) lead me to believe this is an older keris. I just not familiar with the dapurs to venture that it is 18c or 17c. It would be interesting to know.

It would also be interesting to know why a keris like this would end up in this condition and in plastic dress. On line auctions prove there is a market for the "low end" keris... why put it in plastic (seems like more work to me than its worth).

Rick · 13th April 2005, 03:06 PM

I think when we move to casting ukirans and scabbards we have lost something essential to the whole ideal of the keris .
Any of those parts could have been made in the U.S. or any other country for that matter . To me an important part of the keris is the HAND workmanship that goes into the ukiran and dress . If we start to accept plastic copies we show no respect for the artisans who labor to make these elements by hand ; therefore an integral part of the keris making process has been lost .
The whole idea is to keep the carver's art alive and well .

Now about the blade ; I have stuck my neck out about possible origins .
Who's next ?

Bill · 13th April 2005, 04:31 PM

The blade reminds me of the "Moro" kris with the deer antler hilt I have posted in the past. Since I think that sword comes from Sulawesi, I'll vote Sulawesi, just my guess. Have to think Sulawesi played a important roll in keris development, but doesn't seem like much knowledge remains to back that up.

nechesh · 13th April 2005, 06:17 PM

Empu Kumis asks: "...are they made for faking ore just using new materials." My guess is neither. I think they are made to dress souvenir keris and are originally being marketed as such. The problem arises when someone places an old 18th or 19th century keris into one of these dresses. Wayne has wondered why someone would do this. Because it is a very cheap alternative to using traditional materials. Wayne, there is no extra work involved. These outfits are no doubt mass produced by the hundreds if not thousands. It is much easier and cheaper than commissioning a new wood, horn or ivory one or even refitting an old used one. As for how the keris ended up in that condition, well, frankly, i have seen much worse. As the importance of the keris as a cultural icon rapidly decreases, less and less care is taken for these items. People stop feeding them and oiling them, stashed away in the bottom of a trunk somewhere. It gets past on to someone who doesn't care for such things or thinks they are bad luck and sells them for a bit of cash. Not a real likely scenerio for a royal court piece, but it is probably a very likely fate for many commomer pieces.
I also think your blade has some age and think it may actually be Sumatran work (there Rick, stuck my neck out

) and is probably early 19thC. Though i think a good etch and stain will undoubtable improve this blade it still won't make it a high end item. The seller knew this, so why spend money on real dress if he can make better money sticking it in plastic and hoping to fool someone like your friend?

BSMStar · 13th April 2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Wayne, there is no extra work involved. These outfits are no doubt mass produced by the hundreds if not thousands. It is much easier and cheaper than commissioning a new wood, horn or ivory one or even refitting an old used one.

I also think your blade has some age and think it may actually be Sumatran work (there Rick, stuck my neck out

) and is probably early 19thC.

Hi nechesh,

If they are mass producing these (which makes sense, to recoup the cost of the molds, etc...) then this must be one of the first to hit the market. I have see fake keris in plastic dress sold with a Plaque before, this is the first keris only I have seen (with a real blade). Its seems the basic response has been to this thread, there haven't been very many floating around... I guess we need to get ready for the siege.

It seems to me a twist of irony (and more than random chance) to place a Sumatran keris in a plastic Sumatran dress (unless an inventory of different dress are keep - needing a higher investment... wow, are we going to see a lot of these things if that is the case). I think it would take some knowledge on the part of the supplier to pull that off (verses dumb luck). If one were to mass produce Sumatran dress and use Sumatran keris (assuming that is the only dress made)... the source would be Sumatran??? Or am I connecting too many dots. If we see Javanese keris in Javanese plastic dress... then, where will it stop.

Early 19c... Cool! I know there are good keris and not so good keris... but as Rick pointed out in another thread, " as cultural artifacts they are due a certain amount of respect." I may also add that they are history, little pieces of "frozen time" that you can hold in you hand and look upon with a sense of wonder.. thinking about who made them, how they were made, why were they made and for whom, what did it mean or represent... what has it witnessed over the pass two hundred or so years, the people that have coming in contact with it... the good, the bad and all that is in-between. This is what collecting is all about, other than having a cool looking antique hanging on the wall (yea, that's nice too).

Now if I could only teach the keris to speak (or that I learn to listen).

nechesh · 13th April 2005, 10:02 PM

Wayne, if you want to hear the keris speak, try putting it under your pillow at night.

As i mentioned before, we have seen these composite sheath and hilts before and had a thread about them. I believe that originally they are being presented with newly made keris as tourist items. I don't believe the original intention of this dress was to deceive or hold your 19thC blade. The ones i have seen previously were also Sumatran dress and it may very well be a Sumatran product. Of course, the Chinese are very good at using this composite stuff and the work might be imported for an Indonesian market.
It seems neither ironic nor by chance that someone would place an old Sumatran blade in this dress if their intention was to fool an unwary buyer. As for the "good blade"/"bad blade" issue, i couldn't agree with you more. Very few of us have either the money or opportunity to collect really high end pieces. And while the keris culture was certainly dictated from the top of the hierachal food chain (i.e.the kraton) it certain permeated the entire culture, from the poorest farmer to the highest courtesan. All keris are worthy in my book, even the simplest of village pieces.They are all cultural artifacts with a history and a story. Of course, that doesn't mean i don't try to collect well made keris, but if a piece appeals to me the quality might at times be secondary.

13th April 2005, 08:55 AM	#1
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Kerislovers, since many years I follow the footsteps of faked and new kerisses but this is an most interesting handle, wrangka and pendok. The question is, are they made for faking ore just using new materials. The artistic quality seems to me not so bad exept the pendok and mendak. The wrangka has an form almost like the one in: Sharum Bin Yub B.A. Senjata 2 Pesaka Melayu, Keris dan Senjata 2 Pendek 1967 page 45 The blade may be even older then 19 cent. but age does not make good quality. In general plastik in Indonesia for handles I have seen the first times in the late 1980ties. As BSMStar wrote about the bubbles are the traitors. This handle I have found in 1989 in Solo. The black lines indicate the positions of several bubbles. The close up shows better. Attached Images

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13th April 2005, 03:06 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I think when we move to casting ukirans and scabbards we have lost something essential to the whole ideal of the keris . Any of those parts could have been made in the U.S. or any other country for that matter . To me an important part of the keris is the HAND workmanship that goes into the ukiran and dress . If we start to accept plastic copies we show no respect for the artisans who labor to make these elements by hand ; therefore an integral part of the keris making process has been lost . The whole idea is to keep the carver's art alive and well . Now about the blade ; I have stuck my neck out about possible origins . Who's next ?

13th April 2005, 04:31 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	The blade reminds me of the "Moro" kris with the deer antler hilt I have posted in the past. Since I think that sword comes from Sulawesi, I'll vote Sulawesi, just my guess. Have to think Sulawesi played a important roll in keris development, but doesn't seem like much knowledge remains to back that up.

13th April 2005, 06:17 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Empu Kumis asks: "...are they made for faking ore just using new materials." My guess is neither. I think they are made to dress souvenir keris and are originally being marketed as such. The problem arises when someone places an old 18th or 19th century keris into one of these dresses. Wayne has wondered why someone would do this. Because it is a very cheap alternative to using traditional materials. Wayne, there is no extra work involved. These outfits are no doubt mass produced by the hundreds if not thousands. It is much easier and cheaper than commissioning a new wood, horn or ivory one or even refitting an old used one. As for how the keris ended up in that condition, well, frankly, i have seen much worse. As the importance of the keris as a cultural icon rapidly decreases, less and less care is taken for these items. People stop feeding them and oiling them, stashed away in the bottom of a trunk somewhere. It gets past on to someone who doesn't care for such things or thinks they are bad luck and sells them for a bit of cash. Not a real likely scenerio for a royal court piece, but it is probably a very likely fate for many commomer pieces. I also think your blade has some age and think it may actually be Sumatran work (there Rick, stuck my neck out ) and is probably early 19thC. Though i think a good etch and stain will undoubtable improve this blade it still won't make it a high end item. The seller knew this, so why spend money on real dress if he can make better money sticking it in plastic and hoping to fool someone like your friend?

13th April 2005, 10:02 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, if you want to hear the keris speak, try putting it under your pillow at night. As i mentioned before, we have seen these composite sheath and hilts before and had a thread about them. I believe that originally they are being presented with newly made keris as tourist items. I don't believe the original intention of this dress was to deceive or hold your 19thC blade. The ones i have seen previously were also Sumatran dress and it may very well be a Sumatran product. Of course, the Chinese are very good at using this composite stuff and the work might be imported for an Indonesian market. It seems neither ironic nor by chance that someone would place an old Sumatran blade in this dress if their intention was to fool an unwary buyer. As for the "good blade"/"bad blade" issue, i couldn't agree with you more. Very few of us have either the money or opportunity to collect really high end pieces. And while the keris culture was certainly dictated from the top of the hierachal food chain (i.e.the kraton) it certain permeated the entire culture, from the poorest farmer to the highest courtesan. All keris are worthy in my book, even the simplest of village pieces.They are all cultural artifacts with a history and a story. Of course, that doesn't mean i don't try to collect well made keris, but if a piece appeals to me the quality might at times be secondary.