Orientation of the grip of this keris

Rick · 22nd November 2008, 08:52 PM

Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform .

When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about .

Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings .

Jussi M. · 22nd November 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform .

When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about .

Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings .

Possible but unlikely in my opinion as many men at that time had no money to spend of different kerises for different parties. Also why use the adhesive if not to make sure the hilt stays put on the blade? So far I havent heard of a single keris like this which has not had it´s hilt attached firmly to the peksi.

Rick · 22nd November 2008, 09:01 PM

Well ... that would prevent the handle from being re-oriented into a more dangerous position; wouldn't it .

David · 22nd November 2008, 10:02 PM

Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting. I can assure you that it was not intended that way.
What i was attempting to point out, and why what you have or have not done is indeed relevant to this question, is that the shape of the hilt on the keris in question makes the "ice pick" grip just a little bit awkward. This is why i asked you if you had ever tried holding it that way, because as examples of your point you presented an ice pick, not a keris with this style hilt.
Also, the butcher knife which Norman Bates uses in the movie (and this is just a movie, not real life) is not a keris either. So no Jussi, Norman doesn't know. He never comes near a keris in the movie. This grip would not be nearly as comfortable with a keris with this style of handle. Form follows function. Holding a keris with this style hilt almost demands a rather specific grip. If you hold the keris with this grip it becomes obvious how one can move and fight with this weapon.
BTW, the blade shown in the relief is not a keris, at least not as we know the keris today. It can and has been argued to be a kind of proto-keris buda, but it is not the same weapon as the keris up for discussion in this thread. It also does not have the same style of hilt as the keris that is up for discussion so i do not find the comparison all that helpful.
Lastly, even if this relief were relevant you can not always trust art to provide an accurate descriptions of ancient warfare. If so we would have to conclude that the Spartans went into battle bare-ass naked which is nothing more than an idealized artist's rendition of the perfected Spartan, not the logical nor historical account of Spartan battle methods. So no, i do not believe that this relief necessarily shows us a "truthful portrayal" of how even this proto-keris weapon was used, though it is indeed possible that this overhand stab was one of the ways to use it. Frankly though, from a purely martial perspective, i find the overhand stab to be ineffective in most cases and opens up the entire mid-section of the assailant to easy counter-attack. It is also easily blocked.
Jussi, i am not personally clinging to old ideas here. What i am doing is taking the keris in hand and actually trying to use it in different ways to see what the most logical and effective grip and form of attack actually is. No, i was not there and neither my conclusion nor you own will ever be conclusive. But i am not merely following the status quo either.

fearn · 22nd November 2008, 10:17 PM

Hi All,

One point of clarification, what I meant to say when I asked whether "the keris" could be held in an icepick grip was whether this particular keris could be held in an icepick grip, as David already asked. If it can't be held reversed, then that's not the explanation for the orientation of the hilt.

As for the non-functional blade explanation, I believe that there are plenty of non-functional modern keris, including specimens that are a handle attached to a sheath. It's similar to a man's neck tie. It used to be for keeping your neck warm, and now it's mostly symbolic. If you think about it, wearing a winter scarf over a necktie is goofy from the functional perspective, but it is normal behavior in western society when it's cold.

As for the utility of the reversed grip, I'm not a knife fighter, but I've certainly seen the arguments for and against. So far as I can tell, you can use the icepick very effectively, at least with a short blade. Do a google search on "Piper knife" if you want to see a very scary South African knife fighting system that uses the icepick grip almost exclusively. You can also use a knife in a sword grip quite effectively too. It's mostly a question of what range you want to fight at, and the icepick comes into its own when you're close in.

Be that as it may, the question on this particular blade is whether it can be held in a functional way, reversed grip or not. If it cannot be held comfortably in any grip (and do check the left-handed grips too), then we should be talking about non-functional explanations.

F

David · 22nd November 2008, 10:46 PM

Hi Fearn. Your point is well taking on the use of the ice pick grip with the Piper knife system. It looks fast, fierce and dangerous from the videos. Of course this grip is used with a rather small knife and in conjunction with a specific martial art which maintains a protection of the torso throughout. In fact the knife seems to rarely move above the torso in these moves, quite unlike Norman Bates use of the butcher knife in Psycho. Also the elbows and your other hand are almost as likely to deal the finishing blows as the knife. Very scary looking art.
I tried some of these moves (at a much slower speed i must say

) with the reverse grip and must say that i can see doing some effective fighting this way. The hilt does still feel a bit awkward in the hand though. Then i turned the blade back and adopted the more accepted grip which actually allows a grip on the blade as well as the handle with the thumb and fore finger gripping the base of the blade. From my perspective the blade control and speed is greatly enhanced in this position. So is striking distance. If i were going to fix the hilt in just one position this would be the one i would chose. Others might have a different experience. Your mileage may vary.

Jussi M. · 22nd November 2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting.

Noup, you got that wrong David - no offense what so ever

I am not a native English speaker and sometimes getting the right tone is difficult, especially with such a difficult form of humor as sarcasm. Yes, I am fully aware that Mr. Bates didnt use a keris on the Hitchcock movie but that wasnt the point. The point (pun intended) was that it could of have been a small keris but nuff about that

It seems that this subject is clear now. That is good. Now we know.

Cheers,

J

BluErf · 23rd November 2008, 04:02 AM

Hi Jussi,

The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat.

I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2008, 04:52 AM

Kai Wee I agree that the relief carving from Candi Panataran, that Jussi has chosen to illustrate his point, is perhaps not the best for this purpose.

In spite of the fact that reproductions of this relief have been published many times in Indonesia to illustrate the historicity of the keris, in fact, it lacks some of the features that we would normally like to associate with the keris, including the archaic proto types of the keris.

This deficiency has never seemed to worry those Indonesian publishers though:- they simply altered the published images so that the missing gandik was magically included, and the blade became assymetric.

There are other representations of proto keris at Panataran, but I believe it is perhaps better to use one of the representations from Prambanan. This representation inarguably has the assymetric blade and gandik of the modern keris, and it dates from an earlier time than Panataran.

I have studied these carvings at first hand, under magnification, and over a period of years. I have obtained verification from Indonesian archeological officials as to the original state of the Prambanan carving shown here, and I have confirmed this verification by my own examination under magnification.

The image shown here from Prambanan is original, undamaged, and unaltered, and it shows a keris-like dagger which possesses many of the features of the modern keris. It also shows the way in which these daggers were used.

Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

blue lander · 13th May 2015, 10:54 PM

Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread, but the keris I bought recently, show in this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19929

...also has what would be considered a "reversed" grip, and the blade is firmly attached to the hilt. I tried to pull it out or twist it as hard as I could and it wouldn't budge. It might have been affixed with damar, or maybe some western owner glued it into place. I'll try heating it up and see if it budges.

23rd November 2008, 04:52 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Kai Wee I agree that the relief carving from Candi Panataran, that Jussi has chosen to illustrate his point, is perhaps not the best for this purpose. In spite of the fact that reproductions of this relief have been published many times in Indonesia to illustrate the historicity of the keris, in fact, it lacks some of the features that we would normally like to associate with the keris, including the archaic proto types of the keris. This deficiency has never seemed to worry those Indonesian publishers though:- they simply altered the published images so that the missing gandik was magically included, and the blade became assymetric. There are other representations of proto keris at Panataran, but I believe it is perhaps better to use one of the representations from Prambanan. This representation inarguably has the assymetric blade and gandik of the modern keris, and it dates from an earlier time than Panataran. I have studied these carvings at first hand, under magnification, and over a period of years. I have obtained verification from Indonesian archeological officials as to the original state of the Prambanan carving shown here, and I have confirmed this verification by my own examination under magnification. The image shown here from Prambanan is original, undamaged, and unaltered, and it shows a keris-like dagger which possesses many of the features of the modern keris. It also shows the way in which these daggers were used. Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd November 2008 at 11:36 AM.

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22nd November 2008, 08:52 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform . When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about . Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings .

22nd November 2008, 09:01 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Well ... that would prevent the handle from being re-oriented into a more dangerous position; wouldn't it .

22nd November 2008, 10:02 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting. I can assure you that it was not intended that way. What i was attempting to point out, and why what you have or have not done is indeed relevant to this question, is that the shape of the hilt on the keris in question makes the "ice pick" grip just a little bit awkward. This is why i asked you if you had ever tried holding it that way, because as examples of your point you presented an ice pick, not a keris with this style hilt. Also, the butcher knife which Norman Bates uses in the movie (and this is just a movie, not real life) is not a keris either. So no Jussi, Norman doesn't know. He never comes near a keris in the movie. This grip would not be nearly as comfortable with a keris with this style of handle. Form follows function. Holding a keris with this style hilt almost demands a rather specific grip. If you hold the keris with this grip it becomes obvious how one can move and fight with this weapon. BTW, the blade shown in the relief is not a keris, at least not as we know the keris today. It can and has been argued to be a kind of proto-keris buda, but it is not the same weapon as the keris up for discussion in this thread. It also does not have the same style of hilt as the keris that is up for discussion so i do not find the comparison all that helpful. Lastly, even if this relief were relevant you can not always trust art to provide an accurate descriptions of ancient warfare. If so we would have to conclude that the Spartans went into battle bare-ass naked which is nothing more than an idealized artist's rendition of the perfected Spartan, not the logical nor historical account of Spartan battle methods. So no, i do not believe that this relief necessarily shows us a "truthful portrayal" of how even this proto-keris weapon was used, though it is indeed possible that this overhand stab was one of the ways to use it. Frankly though, from a purely martial perspective, i find the overhand stab to be ineffective in most cases and opens up the entire mid-section of the assailant to easy counter-attack. It is also easily blocked. Jussi, i am not personally clinging to old ideas here. What i am doing is taking the keris in hand and actually trying to use it in different ways to see what the most logical and effective grip and form of attack actually is. No, i was not there and neither my conclusion nor you own will ever be conclusive. But i am not merely following the status quo either.

22nd November 2008, 10:17 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, One point of clarification, what I meant to say when I asked whether "the keris" could be held in an icepick grip was whether this particular keris could be held in an icepick grip, as David already asked. If it can't be held reversed, then that's not the explanation for the orientation of the hilt. As for the non-functional blade explanation, I believe that there are plenty of non-functional modern keris, including specimens that are a handle attached to a sheath. It's similar to a man's neck tie. It used to be for keeping your neck warm, and now it's mostly symbolic. If you think about it, wearing a winter scarf over a necktie is goofy from the functional perspective, but it is normal behavior in western society when it's cold. As for the utility of the reversed grip, I'm not a knife fighter, but I've certainly seen the arguments for and against. So far as I can tell, you can use the icepick very effectively, at least with a short blade. Do a google search on "Piper knife" if you want to see a very scary South African knife fighting system that uses the icepick grip almost exclusively. You can also use a knife in a sword grip quite effectively too. It's mostly a question of what range you want to fight at, and the icepick comes into its own when you're close in. Be that as it may, the question on this particular blade is whether it can be held in a functional way, reversed grip or not. If it cannot be held comfortably in any grip (and do check the left-handed grips too), then we should be talking about non-functional explanations. F

22nd November 2008, 10:46 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hi Fearn. Your point is well taking on the use of the ice pick grip with the Piper knife system. It looks fast, fierce and dangerous from the videos. Of course this grip is used with a rather small knife and in conjunction with a specific martial art which maintains a protection of the torso throughout. In fact the knife seems to rarely move above the torso in these moves, quite unlike Norman Bates use of the butcher knife in Psycho. Also the elbows and your other hand are almost as likely to deal the finishing blows as the knife. Very scary looking art. I tried some of these moves (at a much slower speed i must say ) with the reverse grip and must say that i can see doing some effective fighting this way. The hilt does still feel a bit awkward in the hand though. Then i turned the blade back and adopted the more accepted grip which actually allows a grip on the blade as well as the handle with the thumb and fore finger gripping the base of the blade. From my perspective the blade control and speed is greatly enhanced in this position. So is striking distance. If i were going to fix the hilt in just one position this would be the one i would chose. Others might have a different experience. Your mileage may vary.

23rd November 2008, 04:02 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Jussi, The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat. I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

13th May 2015, 10:54 PM	#10
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread, but the keris I bought recently, show in this thread... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19929 ...also has what would be considered a "reversed" grip, and the blade is firmly attached to the hilt. I tried to pull it out or twist it as hard as I could and it wouldn't budge. It might have been affixed with damar, or maybe some western owner glued it into place. I'll try heating it up and see if it budges.