Orientation of the grip of this keris

Jussi M. · 22nd November 2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jussi,

I have to take the opposing view here.

Go ahead, make my day!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Human fighting arts evolved with and around the weapons they had to use. I think we can all subscribe to the notion that different weapons have their own best strokes. To use an extreme example, you really don't want to use a rapier the same way you'd use an axe.

Neither of us was there to witness how fighting arts really evolved but your point sounds logical to me. What I dont agree however is your example regarding rapier and axe. - Of course no one would want to use a rapier like an axe or vice versa as they are not functional on each others roles. A short keris however is very functional in both the common way of grabbing it as well as held on an ice pick grip. Norman Bates proved this on Alfred Hitchcocks Psycho when he used a kitchen knife of the same length as the Bugis kerises discussed on this thread on the nice blond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Yes, the wakizashi works better in close quarters, but the thing is, prior to the Tokugawa shogunate, many samurai carried a tanto instead of a wakizashi, and did so on the battlefield. In this case, we're grafting a functional explanation onto what was basically a legislative act.

Maybe, maybe not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

So far as the keris goes, I have no idea whether it can be held in an icepick grip, although it would be fun to find out. Equally, it could be that this blade was the equivalent of a man's necktie, worn not for physical utility but because it was part of his normal clothing. The handle was twisted out of the way, either to make it easier to wear (as Alan suggested), and it may also have signaled that the owner wasn't interested in getting into a knife fight.

Equally to the example of feodal Japan yes, the keris was a part of attire and there were customs that were more or less strictly obeyed. However if anything the people of ancient were practical. - They had to be as being a good problem solver and practical at what one did was the key to survival. Hence custom or not I have a hard time believing that if some guy at some place decided that grabbing a smaller keris on a reverse grip was a good idea for survival on a physical bout he wouldnt have modified the grip to suit his style of using the blade.

I said this before but I will repeat what I said: not all systems had similar views on what was the best way of using a weapon. Different systems differ on their emphasis on range, ratio between hitting, kicking, grappling what´ll have you - all that stuff. A man with a background in a system leaning heavily towards being on the ground and grappling surely had a different way of looking at things than say a guy with a background on keeping the fight on upright position with lots of hitting like, say, boxing. - And, just like youd grab a hammer closer to the head when you are hammering small nails that bent easily and grab it from the very end to get more momentum via the longer range of motion for those 2X4 nails when you are building a fence, maybe some fighters of old used different methods of getting the work done with the same tool depending on the situation at hand. - Like nails not all opponents were alike either nor equipped likewise what come to hardware.

Both rapier and axe are very limited in the ways they can be used. Not necessarily so with a small keris. Ask Norman, he knows

To get serious again I cannot see any reasons why a small keris could not be used on this manner. I think this is a question that may be worthy of a serious discussion.

Thanks,

J

Rick · 22nd November 2008, 08:52 PM

Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform .

When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about .

Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings .

Jussi M. · 22nd November 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform .

When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about .

Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings .

Possible but unlikely in my opinion as many men at that time had no money to spend of different kerises for different parties. Also why use the adhesive if not to make sure the hilt stays put on the blade? So far I havent heard of a single keris like this which has not had it´s hilt attached firmly to the peksi.

Rick · 22nd November 2008, 09:01 PM

Well ... that would prevent the handle from being re-oriented into a more dangerous position; wouldn't it .

David · 22nd November 2008, 10:02 PM

Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting. I can assure you that it was not intended that way.
What i was attempting to point out, and why what you have or have not done is indeed relevant to this question, is that the shape of the hilt on the keris in question makes the "ice pick" grip just a little bit awkward. This is why i asked you if you had ever tried holding it that way, because as examples of your point you presented an ice pick, not a keris with this style hilt.
Also, the butcher knife which Norman Bates uses in the movie (and this is just a movie, not real life) is not a keris either. So no Jussi, Norman doesn't know. He never comes near a keris in the movie. This grip would not be nearly as comfortable with a keris with this style of handle. Form follows function. Holding a keris with this style hilt almost demands a rather specific grip. If you hold the keris with this grip it becomes obvious how one can move and fight with this weapon.
BTW, the blade shown in the relief is not a keris, at least not as we know the keris today. It can and has been argued to be a kind of proto-keris buda, but it is not the same weapon as the keris up for discussion in this thread. It also does not have the same style of hilt as the keris that is up for discussion so i do not find the comparison all that helpful.
Lastly, even if this relief were relevant you can not always trust art to provide an accurate descriptions of ancient warfare. If so we would have to conclude that the Spartans went into battle bare-ass naked which is nothing more than an idealized artist's rendition of the perfected Spartan, not the logical nor historical account of Spartan battle methods. So no, i do not believe that this relief necessarily shows us a "truthful portrayal" of how even this proto-keris weapon was used, though it is indeed possible that this overhand stab was one of the ways to use it. Frankly though, from a purely martial perspective, i find the overhand stab to be ineffective in most cases and opens up the entire mid-section of the assailant to easy counter-attack. It is also easily blocked.
Jussi, i am not personally clinging to old ideas here. What i am doing is taking the keris in hand and actually trying to use it in different ways to see what the most logical and effective grip and form of attack actually is. No, i was not there and neither my conclusion nor you own will ever be conclusive. But i am not merely following the status quo either.

fearn · 22nd November 2008, 10:17 PM

Hi All,

One point of clarification, what I meant to say when I asked whether "the keris" could be held in an icepick grip was whether this particular keris could be held in an icepick grip, as David already asked. If it can't be held reversed, then that's not the explanation for the orientation of the hilt.

As for the non-functional blade explanation, I believe that there are plenty of non-functional modern keris, including specimens that are a handle attached to a sheath. It's similar to a man's neck tie. It used to be for keeping your neck warm, and now it's mostly symbolic. If you think about it, wearing a winter scarf over a necktie is goofy from the functional perspective, but it is normal behavior in western society when it's cold.

As for the utility of the reversed grip, I'm not a knife fighter, but I've certainly seen the arguments for and against. So far as I can tell, you can use the icepick very effectively, at least with a short blade. Do a google search on "Piper knife" if you want to see a very scary South African knife fighting system that uses the icepick grip almost exclusively. You can also use a knife in a sword grip quite effectively too. It's mostly a question of what range you want to fight at, and the icepick comes into its own when you're close in.

Be that as it may, the question on this particular blade is whether it can be held in a functional way, reversed grip or not. If it cannot be held comfortably in any grip (and do check the left-handed grips too), then we should be talking about non-functional explanations.

F

David · 22nd November 2008, 10:46 PM

Hi Fearn. Your point is well taking on the use of the ice pick grip with the Piper knife system. It looks fast, fierce and dangerous from the videos. Of course this grip is used with a rather small knife and in conjunction with a specific martial art which maintains a protection of the torso throughout. In fact the knife seems to rarely move above the torso in these moves, quite unlike Norman Bates use of the butcher knife in Psycho. Also the elbows and your other hand are almost as likely to deal the finishing blows as the knife. Very scary looking art.
I tried some of these moves (at a much slower speed i must say

) with the reverse grip and must say that i can see doing some effective fighting this way. The hilt does still feel a bit awkward in the hand though. Then i turned the blade back and adopted the more accepted grip which actually allows a grip on the blade as well as the handle with the thumb and fore finger gripping the base of the blade. From my perspective the blade control and speed is greatly enhanced in this position. So is striking distance. If i were going to fix the hilt in just one position this would be the one i would chose. Others might have a different experience. Your mileage may vary.

BluErf · 23rd November 2008, 04:02 AM

Hi Jussi,

The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat.

I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

blue lander · 13th May 2015, 10:54 PM

Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread, but the keris I bought recently, show in this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19929

...also has what would be considered a "reversed" grip, and the blade is firmly attached to the hilt. I tried to pull it out or twist it as hard as I could and it wouldn't budge. It might have been affixed with damar, or maybe some western owner glued it into place. I'll try heating it up and see if it budges.

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22nd November 2008, 08:52 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform . When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about . Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings .

22nd November 2008, 09:01 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Well ... that would prevent the handle from being re-oriented into a more dangerous position; wouldn't it .

22nd November 2008, 10:02 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting. I can assure you that it was not intended that way. What i was attempting to point out, and why what you have or have not done is indeed relevant to this question, is that the shape of the hilt on the keris in question makes the "ice pick" grip just a little bit awkward. This is why i asked you if you had ever tried holding it that way, because as examples of your point you presented an ice pick, not a keris with this style hilt. Also, the butcher knife which Norman Bates uses in the movie (and this is just a movie, not real life) is not a keris either. So no Jussi, Norman doesn't know. He never comes near a keris in the movie. This grip would not be nearly as comfortable with a keris with this style of handle. Form follows function. Holding a keris with this style hilt almost demands a rather specific grip. If you hold the keris with this grip it becomes obvious how one can move and fight with this weapon. BTW, the blade shown in the relief is not a keris, at least not as we know the keris today. It can and has been argued to be a kind of proto-keris buda, but it is not the same weapon as the keris up for discussion in this thread. It also does not have the same style of hilt as the keris that is up for discussion so i do not find the comparison all that helpful. Lastly, even if this relief were relevant you can not always trust art to provide an accurate descriptions of ancient warfare. If so we would have to conclude that the Spartans went into battle bare-ass naked which is nothing more than an idealized artist's rendition of the perfected Spartan, not the logical nor historical account of Spartan battle methods. So no, i do not believe that this relief necessarily shows us a "truthful portrayal" of how even this proto-keris weapon was used, though it is indeed possible that this overhand stab was one of the ways to use it. Frankly though, from a purely martial perspective, i find the overhand stab to be ineffective in most cases and opens up the entire mid-section of the assailant to easy counter-attack. It is also easily blocked. Jussi, i am not personally clinging to old ideas here. What i am doing is taking the keris in hand and actually trying to use it in different ways to see what the most logical and effective grip and form of attack actually is. No, i was not there and neither my conclusion nor you own will ever be conclusive. But i am not merely following the status quo either.

22nd November 2008, 10:17 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, One point of clarification, what I meant to say when I asked whether "the keris" could be held in an icepick grip was whether this particular keris could be held in an icepick grip, as David already asked. If it can't be held reversed, then that's not the explanation for the orientation of the hilt. As for the non-functional blade explanation, I believe that there are plenty of non-functional modern keris, including specimens that are a handle attached to a sheath. It's similar to a man's neck tie. It used to be for keeping your neck warm, and now it's mostly symbolic. If you think about it, wearing a winter scarf over a necktie is goofy from the functional perspective, but it is normal behavior in western society when it's cold. As for the utility of the reversed grip, I'm not a knife fighter, but I've certainly seen the arguments for and against. So far as I can tell, you can use the icepick very effectively, at least with a short blade. Do a google search on "Piper knife" if you want to see a very scary South African knife fighting system that uses the icepick grip almost exclusively. You can also use a knife in a sword grip quite effectively too. It's mostly a question of what range you want to fight at, and the icepick comes into its own when you're close in. Be that as it may, the question on this particular blade is whether it can be held in a functional way, reversed grip or not. If it cannot be held comfortably in any grip (and do check the left-handed grips too), then we should be talking about non-functional explanations. F

22nd November 2008, 10:46 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hi Fearn. Your point is well taking on the use of the ice pick grip with the Piper knife system. It looks fast, fierce and dangerous from the videos. Of course this grip is used with a rather small knife and in conjunction with a specific martial art which maintains a protection of the torso throughout. In fact the knife seems to rarely move above the torso in these moves, quite unlike Norman Bates use of the butcher knife in Psycho. Also the elbows and your other hand are almost as likely to deal the finishing blows as the knife. Very scary looking art. I tried some of these moves (at a much slower speed i must say ) with the reverse grip and must say that i can see doing some effective fighting this way. The hilt does still feel a bit awkward in the hand though. Then i turned the blade back and adopted the more accepted grip which actually allows a grip on the blade as well as the handle with the thumb and fore finger gripping the base of the blade. From my perspective the blade control and speed is greatly enhanced in this position. So is striking distance. If i were going to fix the hilt in just one position this would be the one i would chose. Others might have a different experience. Your mileage may vary.

23rd November 2008, 04:02 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Jussi, The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat. I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

13th May 2015, 10:54 PM	#9
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread, but the keris I bought recently, show in this thread... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19929 ...also has what would be considered a "reversed" grip, and the blade is firmly attached to the hilt. I tried to pull it out or twist it as hard as I could and it wouldn't budge. It might have been affixed with damar, or maybe some western owner glued it into place. I'll try heating it up and see if it budges.