Incendiary quarrels/arrows/crossbow bolts

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the explanation on the use of these. The reason the term quoit is so interesting is because it is the term used for the razor sharp discs with open centers typically associated with Sikh warriors who were deadly accurate at launching them . The Hindu term Chakra usually was used until the Sikh application became quoit.

It does sound gruesome with the magma like sulfur and tar, splattering and attaching its molten presence to flesh, reminding me of the instances in less warlike circumstances of roasting marshmallows and accidentally splashed scalding liquid.

I know exactly what you mean with that semi acrid, dank smell which propels a room as you describe into battlement times of long ago.....there is nothing else that can duplicate that wonderful smell....much like that of a room full of really old books!

I have never been to the Landeszeughaus in Graz, but I do have the book about its fantastic collections, and imagine it as a sort of arms paradise.

Thank you for sharing these Michael,

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Good mornig, Jim,

It's 6 a.m. in Bavaria and I must find some sleep.

Thank you so much for explaining the semantic derivation of "quoit" - I would never have thought that.

Such highly specified knowledge, together with the high standard of formulating your pointed sentences and using elite structure shows me to things: your wide-range and at the same time manifold top level education (certainly partly self-taught) and your extreme personal energy to accomplish the rest.

Gosh, I wish I had more of your gifts. My arms hobby has made my life too one-dimensional.

Send me some lines again, if you like.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Good mornig, Jim,

It's 6 a.m. in Bavaria and I must find some sleep.

Thank you so much for explaining the semantic derivation of "quoit" - I would never have thought that.

Such highly specified knowledge, together with the high standard of formulating your pointed sentences and using elite structure shows me to things: your wide-range and at the same time manifold top level education (certainly partly self-taught) and your extreme personal energy to accomplish the rest.

Gosh, I wish I had more of your gifts. My arms hobby has made my life too one-dimensional.

Send me some lines again, if you like.

Best wishes,
Michael

Michael, I am very deeply honored by these very kind compliments! Thank you! If I may, just say that my only true education has been here, on these forums, and my teachers have been the members here, who like you have openly shared thier weapons, interests and observations.

Actually, the weapons themselves truly teach us, as we seek to find the answers they hold using the often subtle clues they carry. The only knowledge I have has been from following these clues, along with the others in research into nearly every conceivable avenue of history to follow the trail.
I cannot possibly imagine the collecting and studying weapons as being in any way one dimensional, especially those of the stature of those you have shared with us here! You are much too modest Michael, and I believe I speak for everyone in saying we are fortunate to have you with us.

Thank you again!

All very best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Slightly off-topic, but apropo for this thread:

Last night (10/22/08), Mythbusters, the US TV program, built and fired a korean hwacha, which is basically a mobile platform for launching 200 fire arrows (powered by blackpowder rocket motors, and exploding on impact). It was worth watching, and it looks like it will be broadcast again tonight (10/23) and 11/2 in the US.

Just FYI. It's fun to see these weapons in action.
F

[Matchlock]

The watercolors are from the 1485 Landshut/Bavaria armory inventory of which I posted some firearms illustrations in another thread.

Note that the arrows have only one point - as Stekemest wrote, a feature preferably characteristic of South German and Austrian quarrel heads. Thank you again, Peter.

The line drawings were done in the 19th century after the famous South German Hauslab manuscript dated 1442, now preserved in The Royal Armories, Leeds. The watercolors illustrating the making of incendiary arrows posted here earlier are from the same ms. Luckily, those two pages of that book were open on display when I took the photos in the Tower in 1990.

Note that the burning mass on two of the arrows is lit, with smoke curling up. The ankle that both crossbow men and harquebusiers are aiming denotes that the projectiles are planned to cross a town wall and set the wooden tiles of the houses on fire - together with ship sails the main purpose of incendiary projectiles.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Instead of attaching these, I twice enclosed the picture of the cut open fuse.

Next to the two big gray clay grenades there is the small cast iron hand grenade that I posted above.

There is an interesting story to the clay grenades. Hundreds of them were discovered in the Bavarian city of Ingolstadt in May 1983 when a subterraneous garage was built. The grenades were found alongside the old town wall stored on boards covered with straw, all perfectly preserved in the clay ground - see b/w photos.

As they weigh about 4 kilos each I would not refer to them as hand grenades. Being kept ready and primed along the town wall rather indicates that they were lit and just dropped to explode among the besiegers.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More clay grenades of the Thirty Years War, all dug up in Ingolstadt.

I found these pictures on Ebay in November 2007; one image even shows the actual weight of a (comparatively small) grenade: 2,873 kilograms. Some of them were heavily damaged, probably due to the crude teeth of the dredgers.
The fuses are all gone and I doubt whether they had retained their 'fillings' ...

Michael

[bluelake]

Originally Posted by fearn

Slightly off-topic, but apropo for this thread:

Last night (10/22/08), Mythbusters, the US TV program, built and fired a korean hwacha, which is basically a mobile platform for launching 200 fire arrows (powered by blackpowder rocket motors, and exploding on impact). It was worth watching, and it looks like it will be broadcast again tonight (10/23) and 11/2 in the US.

Just FYI. It's fun to see these weapons in action.
F

Sorry for the response to one of the older posts, but this is the first time I saw it. Regarding the "hwacha" episode, the executive producer of the MB show consulted with me on it. I even received a short credit (in the "thanks" portion) from them.

Back on topic--

Here is a Korean fire arrow:

[Matchlock]

Hi Bluelake and Fearn,

It's fascinating to note how similar the basic structures of these Ethnographic and European items are!

Any idea as to the date of that Korean hwacha?

Best,
Michael

[bluelake]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Any idea as to the date of that Korean hwacha?

Best,
Michael

They date from the early Joseon dynasty (the dynasty ran from 1392-1910) and were used against the Japanese in their first invasion of Korea in 1592-98.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the explanation on the use of these. The reason the term quoit is so interesting is because it is the term used for the razor sharp discs with open centers typically associated with Sikh warriors who were deadly accurate at launching them . The Hindu term Chakra usually was used until the Sikh application became quoit.

It does sound gruesome with the magma like sulfur and tar, splattering and attaching its molten presence to flesh, reminding me of the instances in less warlike circumstances of roasting marshmallows and accidentally splashed scalding liquid.

I know exactly what you mean with that semi acrid, dank smell which propels a room as you describe into battlement times of long ago.....there is nothing else that can duplicate that wonderful smell....much like that of a room full of really old books!

I have never been to the Landeszeughaus in Graz, but I do have the book about its fantastic collections, and imagine it as a sort of arms paradise.

Thank you for sharing these Michael,

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ The term Quoit is interesting as it appears to be an English derivation possibly after 1066 from the French.

Quoit (n.) late 14c., "curling stone," perhaps from O.Fr. coite "flat stone" (with which the game was originally played), lit. "cushion," variant of coilte (see quilt).

Quoits were among the games prohibited by Edward III and Richard II to encourage archery. In reference to a heavy flat iron ring (and the tossing game played with it) it is recorded from mid-15c.

I also noted on one of my frequent trips to the UK that it is commonly played as a Pub game in the Welsh borders and in the North East of England both in and outdoors depending on the weather. The flat iron ring appears to derive from a horse shoe. A metal spike is driven into the ground wherupon contestants try to throw quoit onto the ring from a certain distance. Quite difficult with hiccups !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Matchlock]

Hi Ibrahiim,


Thank you so much for your teatise on quoits!

I found a good illustration of a 15th c. incendiary arrow in Philip Mönch's Kriegsbuch, 1496, Universitätsbiblitothek Heidelberg, Cod.Pal.germ. 126, fol. 28r.


Best,
Michael

[Eric Slyter]

I've long wondered about crossbow bolts with the twist below the head and the socket. I hadn't previously been able to find any information on them at all, except that they were possibly javelin points or made for frame-mounted crossbows. If I am to understand correctly, they are incendiary bolts then? What is the time period for them? Thanks!

[Eric Slyter]

Bump! Any further clarification on this?

[Matchlock]

Hi Eric,


It was only today that I noticed your query concerning the twisted haft of incendiary quarrel irons. I beg your pardon for not replying any earlier but as you may have gathered meanwile I was in hospital for the whole year of 2013 and can now only slowly make my way through all my posts.

As I have tried to show in this thread, all the iron heads with a very long and thin 'neck' and twisted haft seem to have been been shaped this specific way to safely hold the incendiary mass. We generally attribute them to the Late Middle Ages, ca. 14th to 16th century.
Nevertheless, many iron heads for incendiary crossbow bolts are known to show no twisting at all.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

In addition to posts #31 and 32 above, I have added two images of the array of some of the many hundreds of unusually heavy Thirty Years War clay grenades dug up in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, in 1983.

I also added an image of glass hand grenades, French, ca. 1740, found in Freiburg, and provided a link to the Wikipedia survey:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_grenade


Best,
Michael