Incendiary quarrels/arrows/crossbow bolts

Matchlock · 21st October 2008, 09:20 PM

I tested small quantities of powder etc. from each of my incendiary objects, as well as powder taken out of 550 year old barrels that were still loaded (!).

My experience has shown that the old black fine powder will just sizzle and sparkle a bit but will not flash up like new black powder does.

Humidity does rarely account for it as that powder had been kept under cover and away from the air for centuries. So my theory is that the respective substances (coal, sulfur and saltpeter/nitrate), all constisting only of fine powder particles, have become de-mingled over that long period of time.

As far as I know, the first experiments with thick grained powder were made no earlier than the mid 16th century.

I would like to hear your theories on that, Gentlemen; I am not a chemist.

Michael

M ELEY · 22nd October 2008, 03:44 AM

Holy cow, Michael!

You really do have some of the rarest things I've ever seen! I wasn't even aware of incendiary quoits! My favorite piece is the 30 Years War grenado with original fuse! Incredible! I've known that the later 18th century bombs had a flattened dimple on the side to keep them from rolling away in combat or in the "fighting top" of a ship, but I never realized that these earlier models had the dimple as well. Thanks so much for posting them. I'll leave your chemistry question alone (not my area).

Matchlock · 22nd October 2008, 04:13 AM

This is the description from Sotheby's sales catalog of 15 Dec 2004:

Matchlock · 22nd October 2008, 04:16 AM

Don't they remind one a bit of donuts?!

Michael

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2008, 06:14 AM

Hi Michael,
Thank you for these fantastic rare items of ordnance! (sorry about the dumb bomb story

.
Like Mark, I'd never heard of incendiary quoits either, and these items really put perspective into the warfare of the times. Whats really amazing is that these have survived, I've never even seen them in catalogs.
Outstanding material!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 22nd October 2008, 07:05 AM

Yes, donuts...the kind James Bond would be served! Don't dip in coffee!

Actually, Jim, I enjoyed your story and it's too bad you don't still have that dummy bomb. Sounds very cool. Getting back to incendiaries, I just read an interesting story from a book on Ft Macon (a Civil War fort near Atlantic Beach,NC) called "The last Shot of the Civil War". It seems that during WWII, with all the submarine activity off our coast, the U.S. Army sent down some soldiers from New York to stay at the well-preserved bunker in case of a shore invasion. A large camp was set up, with many of the soldiers staying in the walls of the fort. One cold night, the 'yankee soldiers' decided to start a fire and used an old cannon ball as an andiron.(Not being rude here. I'm a yank myself from Ohio, but have lived in NC for 20 years) The resulting explosion flung men across the room and injured one soldier. Moral of the story- don't use ordinance in a fireplace. Moral #2- Don't anger any old Confederate ghosts!

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2008, 07:24 AM

Thanks Mark! and great story on the cannonball in the fire!!!

This is a pretty interesting topic and recalls some of the items you brought up in the pirate discussions, and Gilkerson.

How were these quoits used anyway Michael ?, ignited and launched off a pole or something? I've heard of the grenades but not these.

All the best,
Jim

21st October 2008, 09:20 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Are 500 year old incendiaries inert? I tested small quantities of powder etc. from each of my incendiary objects, as well as powder taken out of 550 year old barrels that were still loaded (!). My experience has shown that the old black fine powder will just sizzle and sparkle a bit but will not flash up like new black powder does. Humidity does rarely account for it as that powder had been kept under cover and away from the air for centuries. So my theory is that the respective substances (coal, sulfur and saltpeter/nitrate), all constisting only of fine powder particles, have become de-mingled over that long period of time. As far as I know, the first experiments with thick grained powder were made no earlier than the mid 16th century. I would like to hear your theories on that, Gentlemen; I am not a chemist. Michael

22nd October 2008, 04:13 AM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Incendiary quoites This is the description from Sotheby's sales catalog of 15 Dec 2004: Attached Images

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22nd October 2008, 03:44 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Holy cow, Michael! You really do have some of the rarest things I've ever seen! I wasn't even aware of incendiary quoits! My favorite piece is the 30 Years War grenado with original fuse! Incredible! I've known that the later 18th century bombs had a flattened dimple on the side to keep them from rolling away in combat or in the "fighting top" of a ship, but I never realized that these earlier models had the dimple as well. Thanks so much for posting them. I'll leave your chemistry question alone (not my area).

22nd October 2008, 04:16 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Don't they remind one a bit of donuts?! Michael

22nd October 2008, 06:14 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Michael, Thank you for these fantastic rare items of ordnance! (sorry about the dumb bomb story . Like Mark, I'd never heard of incendiary quoits either, and these items really put perspective into the warfare of the times. Whats really amazing is that these have survived, I've never even seen them in catalogs. Outstanding material! All the best, Jim

22nd October 2008, 07:05 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, donuts...the kind James Bond would be served! Don't dip in coffee! Actually, Jim, I enjoyed your story and it's too bad you don't still have that dummy bomb. Sounds very cool. Getting back to incendiaries, I just read an interesting story from a book on Ft Macon (a Civil War fort near Atlantic Beach,NC) called "The last Shot of the Civil War". It seems that during WWII, with all the submarine activity off our coast, the U.S. Army sent down some soldiers from New York to stay at the well-preserved bunker in case of a shore invasion. A large camp was set up, with many of the soldiers staying in the walls of the fort. One cold night, the 'yankee soldiers' decided to start a fire and used an old cannon ball as an andiron.(Not being rude here. I'm a yank myself from Ohio, but have lived in NC for 20 years) The resulting explosion flung men across the room and injured one soldier. Moral of the story- don't use ordinance in a fireplace. Moral #2- Don't anger any old Confederate ghosts!

22nd October 2008, 07:24 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thanks Mark! and great story on the cannonball in the fire!!! This is a pretty interesting topic and recalls some of the items you brought up in the pirate discussions, and Gilkerson. How were these quoits used anyway Michael ?, ignited and launched off a pole or something? I've heard of the grenades but not these. All the best, Jim