My first kris :)

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by apolaki

WOW! that is soooooo beautiful. i wish i could find one of that nature 2 one day...

apolaki, thanks.

it's a joy to hold and to behold

to all forumites,

i have some questions, please.

in the subject kris, the lamination is there all right, but i'm sure it will not be apparent to the untrained eye. me being a novice, i have to look closely myself.

now i've seen in this forum pics of a lot of blades (barung, kris, etc.) with lamination that's very pronounced.

so my [newbie] question/s are:

[1] is the lamination in some blades more apparent because of some deliberate act? (e.g., polishing, or etching if that's the right term);

[2] is the value of a blade enhanced if such lamination features are made more apparent? or is this just a matter of personal preference and nothing more?

[3] what's the big deal on laminated blades in the first place? in the specific case of moro blades, if they are not laminated would that mean that the blades are fairly recent?

[4] how do you make the lamination come out -- would the procedure described by rick be the one, or was rick referring to a procedure for another context? rick, hope you can comment again!

i have dug up old posts and i can't find direct answers to the above. if they have been discussed in the past, can i just kindly request for the links then.

thanks again to all.

[apolaki]

I have a general question about lamination.. what does it mean?

The blade of my moro kris is very dull, its not sharp at all. i wonder if it was laminated? lol sorry, im very novice myself.. Thanks for enlightening me..

[kai]

Hello Miguel,

That's a long thread - here's the specfic post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=16
There are more recipes to be found on this forum.

Yes, this procedure will bring out laminations (layers of steel which show how the steel got forged).

Depending on the blade's surface (if corroded), you may want to do a little polishing first before moving on to etching.

I'd also stipulate that there is no point in neutralizing diluted vinegar (I prefer technical grade acetic acid and am usually using 1% which is a weak solution): Just heating the blade (with a hair dryer, after wiping on some oil!) will evaporate all remaining acid; just make sure that no vinegar remains in any crevices (just heat those areas longer).

I'll come back to the other questions later.

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Hello Kai,

Thanks for the reply!

Am looking forward to your (and the others') further comments.

Best regards,

MD

PS - So that's how you handpick a post, with the "postcount" suffix. Thanks for the tip

[Bill]

Hi Miguel,
It's a interesting sword. The blade is nicely done. It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C". I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.
The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was. The blade is likely 100 years or older but it's hard to tell from pictures & the fact it was coping a old style.
I bought a small dress kris from Ramon Villegas but can't find his appraisal at the moment. The hilt work it similar and likely done by the same craftsman. If I recall correctly he said the kris I have was Maranao & done in the early 1960's. My blade is hand forged but not nearly as nice as yours or the "old" work in general. I've seen several swords that appear to have the same quality blade, hilt work & ivory pommel as mine. Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.
For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.
Villegas used to have a numismatic shop in Makati, bet you he could give you much better detail then myself. By the way, can you describe the coins?

[kai]

Hello Bill,

The blade is nicely done.

Note that there's still a little bit of silver inlay attached close to the lower asang-asang. I'm not holding my breath but you may want to try etching the blade.

It's a copy of what Cato refers to a "18C".

I also think that this is a revival piece - possibly dating from after the Span.-Am. war and before 1930. Certainly not what Cato refers to as 18th c. (the curves are not old style, too) and more likely to be early 20th c.

I'm not sure where it was made The file work in the center looks like Maguindanao or Maranao but elephant's head looks more Sulu.

The pics are not taken from directly above - I believe the blade is Maguindanao indeed.

The blade is older then the hilt. You can see where the old baca-baca (stirrup) once was.

Yes, IMHO they recycled an older pommel and added the flashy grip section (done in Marawi?). Also the asang-asang are not attached correctly.

If this would be my piece, I'd be tempted to tear the hilt apart, to attach the asang-asang correctly, to add a plain silver ferrule, and to try my hands at a decent grip wrapping.

Your ivory pommel is different & perhaps made earlier then the 60's, hard to say.

They are often artificially aged. However, the carving seems to be good quality on this one; I wouldn't be surprised if it had the same age as the blade.

For the most part, I think the coins in the scabbard are also most common in 1960's work & latter. The rattan looks older then that but I've also seen quite a few scabbards made in the 60's that are similar.

Coming out of the Philippines, the scabbard can't be too old for such a piece: Post-WW2 but there's always the chance that it may have been done "yesterday"...

BTW, some of the blades coming out of the Philippines nowadays show a surface hinting at laminations but are apparently monosteel. They have separate gangya but I suspect that they may be newly done and etched. It was already known that blades with separate gangya continue to be produced for local use; the blades mentioned seem to be a response to the foreign collectors' market though.

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

Hi Kai, The stirrup on mine is nonfunctional, it is held in place by the hilt. Miguel's stirrups & mine look like the work of the same craftsman.
While some/much of the work in this time period was likely for high end consumers, it's not tourist quality or even meant as a high end souvenir.
Look at the dust cover on Moro Swords. I believe it to be from the time period, 1960's & similar craftsmanship. While these swords may not have been intended for battle, I believe they were meant for local use as dress swords or even gift/presentation. For that reason, I would not consider replacing the hilt/dress. Besides, the quality of work is really good. Some tourist pieces have the same look but no where the quality.
Sadly the sheath does give it a tourist feel but it also is likely "legit", IMO, as a example of the 1960's. While we likely will never know, it is very plausible this sword/sheath was worn, just like it is. IMO, it makes the whole package ethnographic.
The blade in my small sword is not the center piece but it is razor sharp & certainly could be used as a weapon.

[kai]

Hello Miguel,

[1] is the lamination in some blades more apparent because of some deliberate act? (e.g., polishing, or etching if that's the right term);

Yes, that's usually enhanced by recent etching; there is some discussion wether Moro blades were etched by default traditionally: There are some assertions that blades were etched to keep a drawn blade from reflecting sun light and possibly warn the victim of an ambush. There also are reports that blades were polished shiny as a preparation of a juramentado. This isn't necessarily a contradiction though (practical vs. ritual).

[2] is the value of a blade enhanced if such lamination features are made more apparent? or is this just a matter of personal preference and nothing more?

Probably personal preference/curiosity as well as a matter of being historically correct. Special lamination patterns will also imply a higher status blade.

[3] what's the big deal on laminated blades in the first place? in the specific case of moro blades, if they are not laminated would that mean that the blades are fairly recent?

Laminated blades are usually not merely intended for show but business; cheap tourist blades are always done from monosteel (by forging or often mere stock removal). There are a few antique Moro kris with honest monosteel blades because European steel was of high quality and didn't needed the traditional welding procedure to produce high quality blades. OTOH, some keris sundang are currently produced in Indonesia with high-contrast pamor. However, the rule of thumb still is that laminated blades are old/antique.

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Hello Kai and Bill,

Wow, you guys are awesome ... I am not worthy

Many thanks for those observations on the kris and answers to the queries! Reviewing the kris with those info in mind, it certainly gives me a new perspective and greater depth in appreciating the piece.

So if for any reason you sirs will be in Manila, don't hesitate to tell me in advance. I'll certainly treat you to the largest steak in town

I think I am definitely hooked into this new pursuit of mine.

Thanks again and I'll get those other info (on the coins, etc.). Will also do the etching soon (among other to-do's like trace Ramon Villegas).

MD

[Spunjer]

hi miguel

welcome, pare..
at the base of the handle, the brass looking thingy; it reminds me of the bagung lipunan singko centavo coin. or is it?

also, between the handle and the pommel, there appears to be a clear, milky substance. is just a reflection from the cam, or is it glue?
if you can remove the blade from the handle (with heat) you should be able to tell if the wood is fairly new or old.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hi miguel

welcome, pare..
at the base of the handle, the brass looking thingy; it reminds me of the bagung lipunan singko centavo coin. or is it?

also, between the handle and the pommel, there appears to be a clear, milky substance. is just a reflection from the cam, or is it glue?
if you can remove the blade from the handle (with heat) you should be able to tell if the wood is fairly new or old.

Hi Spunjer,

Thanks for the welcome, pare ko!

On the brass thingy between the hilt and the gangya, I compared the number of luks on that old Phil. coin (below) vs. the one in the kris ... hence, it's not that coin that was used (or any other coin for that matter I think).

On the white thing beneath the pommel, I checked and yes, it looks like it's glue. So it looks like the pommel is a recent addition?

On removing the blade, let me gather some more courage first, hehe.

Thanks and mabuhay [cheers]!

[kai]

Hello Miguel,

Thanks, I'll gladly let you know when I make it to Manila (didn't realized you being from the Philippines) - always nice to meet up with forumites! I'm afraid having to admit that I prefer food which can be tackled with chop sticks rather than swords though...

On the white thing beneath the pommel, I checked and yes, it looks like it's glue. So it looks like the pommel is a recent addition?

I still think that it's most likely the middle section (grip) which got replaced or pimped up. As Bill mentioned, done fairly nicely for this type but it does look later than blade and pommel; the "brass looking thingy"/"ferrule" is certainly "over the edge" and not needed IMHO.

On removing the blade, let me gather some more courage first, hehe.

Just heat the blade with a candle (or other weak flame) for a while; make sure you don't cut yourself! If the blade got also attached by the modern glue, it will be very difficult to remove it though.

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Miguel,

Thanks, I'll gladly let you know when I make it to Manila (didn't realized you being from the Philippines) - always nice to meet up with forumites! I'm afraid having to admit that I prefer food which can be tackled with chop sticks rather than swords though...

Kai (et al.), yes just let me know when you'll be in town.

To make it more equitable, all those forumites who commented on this post of mine when they get to Manila will get a full course dinner ... while those who didn't comment will still be welcome ... but they will just get a mug of beer or any drink of their choice

If your prefer to go "arnis" (chopsticks) instead of swords, there's a lot of good Chinese and Japanese restaurants here also

Originally Posted by kai

I still think that it's most likely the middle section (grip) which got replaced or pimped up. As Bill mentioned, done fairly nicely for this type but it does look later than blade and pommel; the "brass looking thingy"/"ferrule" is certainly "over the edge" and not needed IMHO.

Ok, thanks for the additional comments.

Originally Posted by kai

Just heat the blade with a candle (or other weak flame) for a while; make sure you don't cut yourself! If the blade got also attached by the modern glue, it will be very difficult to remove it though. Regards, Kai

Copy ... and I think I should definitely do this one of these days.

Thanks again for the comments!!