Melanesian pole club?

VANDOO · 19th October 2008, 07:36 PM

THE END OF THE ITEM HAS THE DARK BANDS I ASSOCIATE WITH A DECORATIVE FIBER WRAP THAT IS NOW MISSING THRU NATURAL DRYING AND DETERIOATION AND BECOMING BRITTLEOVER TIME. THE FIBER WRAP IS SOMETIMES DECORATIVE AND SOMETIMES PLAIN AND SERVES THE FUNCTION OF PROVIDING A GOOD GRIP IN MOST CASES. THIS IS COMMON THRU OUT OCEANIC SOCIETYS SO DOSEN'T HELP PIN IT DOWN MUCH. THE LOOK OF THE WOOD AND THE EVIDENCE OF A WRAP DOES CAUSE ME TO SUSPECT IT IS NOT AFRICAN OR AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL BUT THATS ABOUT ALL I CAN DEDUCE FROM IT.

THE SHAPE IS NOT SOMETHING I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OR SOMETHING I HAVE NOTICED IN MY REFRENCES. I WOULD HAZZARD A GUESS BASED ON A GUT FEELING THAT IT NOT A CLUB BUT A CHIEFS STAFF OR A SPEAKERS STAFF. BOTH WERE USED THRU OUT POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS AND WERE OFTEN PLAIN WITH NO TIKI DECORATIONS OR SYMBOLIC MARKINGS. THEY WOULD BE MORE RARE THAN WAR CLUBS AS ONLY ONE WOULD BE MADE FOR THE VILLAGE OR IN SOME CASES SEVERAL VILLAGES. THE STAFFS WITH SYMBOLS OR MARKINGS USUALLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH CEREMONIES AND RITUALS AND SHAMAN OR WITCHDOCTORS. THE CHIEFS STAFF WAS A SYMBOL OF THE CHIEFS POWER AND WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE A WEAPON OR BE USED IN CEREMONIES. THE SPEAKERS STAFF WAS OFTEN PLAIN AND USED AT TRIBAL MEETINGS WHERE IMPORTANT THINGS WERE BEING DISCUSSED AND RESOLVED, WHOEVER HELD THE STAFF HAD THE FLOOR AND WAS LISTENED TO BY ALL AT THESE GATHERINGS.
PERHAPS YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING SIMULAR TO YOUR ITEM LOOKING IN REFRENCES UNDER THESE TWO CATAGORYS. NICE STICK WHATEVER IT IS

GOOD LUCK

Tim Simmons · 20th October 2008, 05:10 PM

Barry, your comments are most encouraging. A speakers staff is quite interesting. Having handled some Japanese martial arts kit I am now pretty sure it is not that sort of thing. I feel the similar tapering form of the Vanuatu club may indicate a Melanesian origin. There are many islands in this group and as shown in a previous thread about wooden knives forms vary from each Island. This is also not including other Melanisian Islands.

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2008, 08:52 PM

This is good stuff. I have the book on it's way to me. Scroll to contents and click on "hunting,warfare,and communiction"
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...result#PPP1,M1

Tim Simmons · 23rd October 2008, 09:40 PM

I have the book now. I cannot spend the time to upload all the information further than where the link in the last reply left off "hunting, warfare, and communication". All I can say is that much reference was made to the simple truncated cone shape club. There is illustrations of a great many clubs, scores, just not the one I have, some very similar. Also images of how fibres were bound at the handle end and a loop to fit on the shoulder so the club hung out of the way next to the body. Reference is also made to the great "fencing skill" in the use of these clubs. The survey of the Vanuatu group of islands was carried out in 1912, at that time real clubs had ceased to be made and acurate information on all forms from the islands was no longer available. I would suggest any interested parties to purchase a copy. I am now certian of my original supostion of a Melanesion club quite probably from the Vanuatu islands but equally a possible origin from New Caledonia, New Britain, New Ireland, New Hebrides, Solomans possibly even Fiji which can be included in Melanesian study. I am confident it is not from Papua.

fearn · 23rd October 2008, 11:18 PM

Hi Tim,

I've followed the link, and in reading the text on short clubs (p. 205 and following), I'm getting confused. Since the relevant plates aren't given in the preview text, I'm limited to the written descriptions. In those descriptions, the author pretty consistently talks about short clubs having distinct grips and heads, which we definitely don't see on this specimen.

Since you actually have the book, it would be wonderful if you could either point to the text where he talks about octagonal clubs such as this specimen. I'm assuming I missed it, and I'd like to see what I missed.

F

Tim Simmons · 24th October 2008, 06:17 PM

Fearn it is not for me to suggest what you may have missed. A few points to keep in mind. I think I am not forming an opinion based on the mind set of a creationist. We are only looking at one part of Melanisia just here, where clearly stated all forms are unkown. Agreed the form in question is not mentioned or illustrated, many of the forms illustrated are indeed also not mentioned. How hard is it to facet a cone form? rather in the same way as the spear? The "club?" in question has had some binding at the thin end. In these pictures I find the throwing stones most interesting they are around 30cm long. The log shaped ones are coral. It is exactly these problems of attributing age and origin that only a decade or two past put ethno weapon in the bargian basement of collecting, look what has happened now that people have bothered to do basic research? almost knocking antique military weapons into a tricorn hat.

fearn · 24th October 2008, 08:46 PM

Cool! Thanks Tim!

I'm glad you took the time to upload all of those plates. It really helps in understanding the text.

As for faceting a cone, I don't know how hard it would be for the woodworker. I do know that the two times I've tried to make an even octagon out of a dowel, I've failed miserably. That probably says more about my minimal woodworking abilities than anything else, but I do think that it's a little more difficult than it looks. The problem I ran into was keeping the facets even the length of the dowl.

I agree with you on the throwing stones. Those are neat. Wonder if any of those will show up in collections?

F

24th October 2008, 06:17 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,872	Fearn it is not for me to suggest what you may have missed. A few points to keep in mind. I think I am not forming an opinion based on the mind set of a creationist. We are only looking at one part of Melanisia just here, where clearly stated all forms are unkown. Agreed the form in question is not mentioned or illustrated, many of the forms illustrated are indeed also not mentioned. How hard is it to facet a cone form? rather in the same way as the spear? The "club?" in question has had some binding at the thin end. In these pictures I find the throwing stones most interesting they are around 30cm long. The log shaped ones are coral. It is exactly these problems of attributing age and origin that only a decade or two past put ethno weapon in the bargian basement of collecting, look what has happened now that people have bothered to do basic research? almost knocking antique military weapons into a tricorn hat. Attached Images

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19th October 2008, 07:36 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE END OF THE ITEM HAS THE DARK BANDS I ASSOCIATE WITH A DECORATIVE FIBER WRAP THAT IS NOW MISSING THRU NATURAL DRYING AND DETERIOATION AND BECOMING BRITTLEOVER TIME. THE FIBER WRAP IS SOMETIMES DECORATIVE AND SOMETIMES PLAIN AND SERVES THE FUNCTION OF PROVIDING A GOOD GRIP IN MOST CASES. THIS IS COMMON THRU OUT OCEANIC SOCIETYS SO DOSEN'T HELP PIN IT DOWN MUCH. THE LOOK OF THE WOOD AND THE EVIDENCE OF A WRAP DOES CAUSE ME TO SUSPECT IT IS NOT AFRICAN OR AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINAL BUT THATS ABOUT ALL I CAN DEDUCE FROM IT. THE SHAPE IS NOT SOMETHING I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OR SOMETHING I HAVE NOTICED IN MY REFRENCES. I WOULD HAZZARD A GUESS BASED ON A GUT FEELING THAT IT NOT A CLUB BUT A CHIEFS STAFF OR A SPEAKERS STAFF. BOTH WERE USED THRU OUT POLYNESIAN SOCIETYS AND WERE OFTEN PLAIN WITH NO TIKI DECORATIONS OR SYMBOLIC MARKINGS. THEY WOULD BE MORE RARE THAN WAR CLUBS AS ONLY ONE WOULD BE MADE FOR THE VILLAGE OR IN SOME CASES SEVERAL VILLAGES. THE STAFFS WITH SYMBOLS OR MARKINGS USUALLY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH CEREMONIES AND RITUALS AND SHAMAN OR WITCHDOCTORS. THE CHIEFS STAFF WAS A SYMBOL OF THE CHIEFS POWER AND WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE A WEAPON OR BE USED IN CEREMONIES. THE SPEAKERS STAFF WAS OFTEN PLAIN AND USED AT TRIBAL MEETINGS WHERE IMPORTANT THINGS WERE BEING DISCUSSED AND RESOLVED, WHOEVER HELD THE STAFF HAD THE FLOOR AND WAS LISTENED TO BY ALL AT THESE GATHERINGS. PERHAPS YOU CAN FIND SOMETHING SIMULAR TO YOUR ITEM LOOKING IN REFRENCES UNDER THESE TWO CATAGORYS. NICE STICK WHATEVER IT IS GOOD LUCK

20th October 2008, 05:10 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,872	Barry, your comments are most encouraging. A speakers staff is quite interesting. Having handled some Japanese martial arts kit I am now pretty sure it is not that sort of thing. I feel the similar tapering form of the Vanuatu club may indicate a Melanesian origin. There are many islands in this group and as shown in a previous thread about wooden knives forms vary from each Island. This is also not including other Melanisian Islands.

22nd October 2008, 08:52 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,872	This is good stuff. I have the book on it's way to me. Scroll to contents and click on "hunting,warfare,and communiction" http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...result#PPP1,M1

23rd October 2008, 09:40 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,872	I have the book now. I cannot spend the time to upload all the information further than where the link in the last reply left off "hunting, warfare, and communication". All I can say is that much reference was made to the simple truncated cone shape club. There is illustrations of a great many clubs, scores, just not the one I have, some very similar. Also images of how fibres were bound at the handle end and a loop to fit on the shoulder so the club hung out of the way next to the body. Reference is also made to the great "fencing skill" in the use of these clubs. The survey of the Vanuatu group of islands was carried out in 1912, at that time real clubs had ceased to be made and acurate information on all forms from the islands was no longer available. I would suggest any interested parties to purchase a copy. I am now certian of my original supostion of a Melanesion club quite probably from the Vanuatu islands but equally a possible origin from New Caledonia, New Britain, New Ireland, New Hebrides, Solomans possibly even Fiji which can be included in Melanesian study. I am confident it is not from Papua.

23rd October 2008, 11:18 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I've followed the link, and in reading the text on short clubs (p. 205 and following), I'm getting confused. Since the relevant plates aren't given in the preview text, I'm limited to the written descriptions. In those descriptions, the author pretty consistently talks about short clubs having distinct grips and heads, which we definitely don't see on this specimen. Since you actually have the book, it would be wonderful if you could either point to the text where he talks about octagonal clubs such as this specimen. I'm assuming I missed it, and I'd like to see what I missed. F

24th October 2008, 08:46 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Cool! Thanks Tim! I'm glad you took the time to upload all of those plates. It really helps in understanding the text. As for faceting a cone, I don't know how hard it would be for the woodworker. I do know that the two times I've tried to make an even octagon out of a dowel, I've failed miserably. That probably says more about my minimal woodworking abilities than anything else, but I do think that it's a little more difficult than it looks. The problem I ran into was keeping the facets even the length of the dowl. I agree with you on the throwing stones. Those are neat. Wonder if any of those will show up in collections? F