The Flyssa

[katana]

Now to put the 'cat amongst the pigeons'......

This is quite interesting..

http://amazighroots.blogspot.com/200...onnection.html

http://www.north-of-africa.com/artic...id_article=435


Regards David

PS This translated page (French) gives Berber First Names, Flyssa appears to be a female name....
http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

[katana]

Researching the Kabyles and the Iflisen (the group usually attributed as making the Flyssa) I found this.....battles with the Turks late 18thC -early 19thC ........are we back to the Yatagan 'relationship' ...it could explain why the Flyssa 'appeared' around that time


http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Regards David

PS Interestingly the Celts had also settled central Turkey ...a long time ago but some local traditions seem to survive.

[fearn]

Another neat discussion. Thanks Freebooter.

I have to disagree with Gonzalo, though. The bronze swords didn't disappear hundreds of years ago. What disappeared was the active manufacture and use of such blades. It's pretty easy for a smith to get a look at an old blade and use that as inspiration for his own work. This is especially true for work of more recent origin. Copying is not continuity, even if the people doing the copying are descendents of those who made the originals.

Here's an example: While it's not a weapon tradition, I like Mata Ortiz pottery, of which I have a nice sample. For those who don't know, this pottery is made in northern Mexico by people of Indian descent. It was specifically (and knowingly) inspired by the the ancient pottery designs of the Pueblo tribes in the southwest US in the 20th century, based on designs that archeologists were uncovering in digs of Anasazi and other regions.

Now, a bunch of the "Anasazi" are known to have migrated into Mexico around 1000 years ago, and so it's quite possible that the people of Mata Ortiz are (in part) their descendents. Nonetheless, they did not keep the tradition of Mata Ortiz pottery. They have revived it, based on old samples and modern teaching.

There's no reason that something similar couldn't have happened with the flyssa.

My 0.02 centavos,

F

[Gonzalo G]

I could take this on account as a possibility, if the vandals were modern man with time to spare digging for bronze swords and using them to be inspired in their design. But the knowledege and study of the anasazi implies the development of modern science, and to be inspired by them, a very modern attitude of a civilized man. I´m sure the vandals found more interesting and useful things in their path, and neverthless they taked them only as a booty. When they arrived to Hispania, the falcata, a weapon from the second iron age, was almost dissapeared completely. At least, this is what archaeology and archaeologists says.

By the way, there is a big and surprising resemblance among the anthena swords from the celts, and those same type of swords from the chinese. Both boronze swords. I wonder what does this implies is terms of connections.
Regards

Gonzalo

[fearn]

Hi Gonzalo,

You're partially right, but the thing is, we don't have a deep historical record of the flyssa either, and an interest in the past goes back several hundred years in the Mediterranean (as does tourism). In the absence of archeological evidence for flyssa development, we can't sort out whether the flyssas are:

1. A cultural survival from the Iron Age (akin to katanas allegedly being a half ken), or more improbably from the Bronze Age
2, A independent local development,
3. A local adaptation of a yataghan, kopis, etc.
4. A redevelopment, based on either someone finding an old blade (tomb raiding, perhaps) or an old sculpture or other illustration.

As for the bronze swords, before the economy did it's little bubble and burp recently, I was thinking of going to the UK and making a replica myself (link). Looks like fun. Personally, if I'm going to own an antenna sword, it might be fun to cast it myself, with help from a smith.

F

[Gonzalo G]

Great idea Fearn!! It would be very nice to have one of those anthenae sword. The little bubble makes a little more difficult to get an original one...But for that purpose, if you can´t go there, you can make one in home. I mean, in your city. Apart form the technicalties, meaning smelting with bellows, the problem is to make a good authentic replica of a historic anthenae bronze sword.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

The subject of the mysterious ancestry of the flyssa has really brought in some great discussion here, and excellent observations. I honestly have been thinking a lot about things that have been brought up, and while the fascinating idea of the Rohrschach application, if you will, in bringing together two flyssa doppelgangers revealing an ancient Celtic sword is admittedly most appealing, it must remain hypothetical.The waisted blade on the Celtic example corresponds nicely with the deep belly on the flyssa, and presents a tempting suggestion, but without either well supported evidence or archaeological proof in examples of prototypes, cannot be developed as a theory.

The subject on Celtic influence in North Africa seems to be best considered as indirect diffusion. While the Celtic culture was clearly widespread over considerable ancient periods, it permeated many developing cultures, with its influences remaining as fiber in all of them. I was thinking, I myself carry Celtic influence, as clearly my surname reflects Scottish ancestry, and as often the case in American people, my geneology reflects Germanic and other influences, all Indo-European, as well. In this sense, Celtic influence did exist in North African culture. I think the link that David posted showed it well, reflecting linguistic associations between Berber language and Gaelic.

The development of the flyssa seems most likely as previously mentioned, through Ottoman influences, which indirectly seem to have evolved from the Meditteranean edged weapons that prevailed in ancient times; the kopis, the machaira and the falcata. These all have the prominant deep belly that seems to have become a key feature in a number of weapons in places such as India, and of course the kukri, which though associated with Nepal, seems to have earlier influences from India. There are of course other sword forms carrying this early Meditteranean influence, including the later developing yataghan of Turkey, bringing us to our point of contact.

Rather than progressive line of development, which of course we know does not exist presently in archaeological evidence, I believe there has been often in many cultures, a reaching for tradition in weaponry, which in many cases might best be considered sought in iconographical sources. Possibly this might explain the adoption of certain distinct features on weapons that have appeared with ancient appearance in relatively modern times. I believe there are a number of examples that reflect this possibility such as the shotel, and others such as the yataghan, therefore indirectly....the flyssa.

All best regards,
Jim