Found it in Maui

[A. G. Maisey]

Differentiation of Balinese and Javanese blades is not difficult, but I would leave the "Hindu" out of it.

Hindu Javanese refers to Majapahit and before, that is pre-1525 (nominal date).

Almost 500 years ago.

Let's get fair dinkum.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Let's get fair dinkum.

Had to look that one up Alan. You Aussies have some fun expressions.
Kulbuntet, as i understand it the culture of the Majapahit kingdom pretty much moved to Bali after it's fall at the beginning of the 14th century. I don't think you can divide blades made after this time as Javanese Hindu vs. Bali Hindu. At that point it's pretty much just Balinese. The Balinese keris do seem to have then developed into a larger and more robust form. I am not sure that this was the case before the fall of the Majapahit though. Bali was then under the influence of the kingdom as it was centered in Jawa and i believe that the proper pakem of that kraton would dictate the form that keris blades took regardless of whether they were made in Jawa or Bali.

[A. G. Maisey]

My apologies David, I usually try not to write in the way in which I speak, as I realise that much of my normal patois would be totally incomprehensible to most speakers of the English language. That one just slipped by me.

I'm not so sure that the idea of "pakem" existed in old Jawa. I feel that a lot of the nit-picking categorisation that goes on with the keris possibly did not begin to occur until after the resurgence of Javanism that occurred during the Kartosuro era.Twenty years ago I would have thought that this had reached its peak during the 1920's and 1930's, but I would have been wrong. It seems to me that more pigeon holes get added every day.

How much this contributes towards the understanding of the keris, I am as yet uncertain.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My apologies David, I usually try not to write in the way in which I speak, as I realise that much of my normal patois would be totally incomprehensible to most speakers of the English language. That one just slipped by me.

No problem Alan. It allows me to practice my google.

[kulbuntet]

But were there in late matharam no hindu religion on Java?

I don't know for sure but my friend is a dunkun he poses more than 300 keris, a lot of them are Bali/lombok keris.. he show me what he meant. He hindu javanese that left to go to bali made bali keris over there, the sarong was made balinese the hulu balinese the blade aswel. But in the forging of the blade there was a slight javanese style. Seen on the gonjo and the sorsoran. I wil try to show the difrence to what i mean.

Hindu balinese bali keris

Hind Javanese bali/lombok keris

[A. G. Maisey]

What we are dabbling in here is the classification of blades:- tangguh.

The first blade shown here does appear to be a typical Balinese blade, the second blade shown appears to be a Javanese blade.

I would not be definite about either unless I handled them.

In the real world, Javanese blades get dressed in Balinese dress, Balinese blades get dressed in Javanese dress, Javanese blades in fact get dressed in all sorts of dress, and this has been the case for many, many years, because Javanese blades have been an item of trade across S.E.Asia, and as far as Sri Lanka, since at least the 15th century. Bugis blades appear in Sumatran dress. Madurese smiths worked all over S.E. Asia, and are reputed to have made blades in the Moro style in Brunei.

Lombok blades are inclined to be a little exaggerated. If it is Lombok origin, but from a Javanese influenced maker, it will exhibit the features of probably Mataram, but will be a bit bigger and a bit more exaggerated than a true Mataram blade. Lombok blades in Lombok style will in most cases be extreme and often display unusual features. Lombok/Bali blades are often very, very difficult to distinguish from Bali blades made in Bali--I would not guarantee that I could do it.

As for Hindu smiths in late Mataram Jawa, well, there may have been a few holdouts in isolated places. Maybe down around Banyuwangi. But then what is "late Mataram"? Some people would count this through to around 1825. Probably second half 17th century might be more reasonable, but then in keris terms you have Amangkurat, and that was Islam predominating in Jawa. Yes, Hindu influences remain in Javanese culture through until today, especially in palace culture, but Islam was the dominant external religious influence in Jawa from around 1525.

To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To my very limited imagination it is a fairly simple thing:- if a blade can be classified according to major indicators as a Javanese blade, then it is a Javanese blade. If that blade is in Balinese, or Bugis, or Palembang dress, then it is a Balinese keris, or a Bugis keris, or a Palembang keris, with a Javanese blade.

Oke Alan thanks for shearing you knowledge. now an other question, if a Javanese empu made a Bali blade by Bali "pakem", it goes into a Bali sarong and gets a Bali uwer and hilt, would it not get reconised by others as a not "realy" Balinese? Or can it never get indicated as "difrent"?

Regards Michel