Swedish-Norwegian Naval Cutlass M1800

celtan · 1st October 2008, 01:01 PM

Hi Jim,

I agree it does look like a pioneer sword, specially the mid 19th C. ones from Austria.

Yep. it's fully IDed a a Naval Sword (not a cutlass, though) in p.267 of H. Wither's book "World Swords 1400-1945", on the chapter about "Naval Swords".

Indeed, I saw recently an EB auction of one, IDing. same a a swedish infantry sidearm, from the russian-swedish wars in Finland. And yet I believe the seller didn't know squat about this blade. He actually let it go for 15% of its appraised book value!

But then, isn't that the kind of a deal we ourselves dream about? The buyer was indeed a very lucky bloke!

: )

M

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2008, 07:35 PM

Hi Celtan,
Thank you for noting the source for the identification. I thought I had some reference here in the bookmobile on Swedish arms, but apparantly those books did not 'make the flight'. I do have the handy Wagner 'pocket reference'

though! I wasn't aware of Mr. Withers book on world swords, but apparantly he does present good comprehensive reference. I know that he is at present writing a book on Scottish weapons, which I'm looking forward to.

I think the term cutlass is likely misleading in the 19th century, as these sidearms were probably more utility weapons than for combat. This is of course why the heavy shellguards gave way to the open and functional grip, and the quillon terminals are simply vestigial decoration. These were probably used much in the way of the Dutch infantry swords I mentioned, or the 'falchions' used by Austrian sappers in about the mid 19th century. I think the only combat potential for these would have been of course on land, in operations much as Marines, but just a thought without more research.

You're very right on the pleasant experience of finding a 'sleeper' ! This is truly the key benefit of expanding ones knowledge on these weapons, so that you will have the upper hand in those 'Kodak moments' ! I still treasure those of my own experience from years ago, and the exhaustion of trying to keep my composure in not giving myself away in completing the deal....and the explosion of jubilation and relief when it was done!!!

On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature.

All best regards, and thanks again for posting this!
Jim

chevalier · 1st October 2008, 08:34 PM

the swedes had contact with the ottomans during the 17th-18th centuries as evidenced by this article

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...connection.htm

katana · 1st October 2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature.

Jim

Hi Jim and Manolo

,
I too am curious....it reminds me of the 'eared pommels' on a number of Eastern swords/daggers, it would help grip...so perhaps just functional ?

Regards David

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 04:37 AM

HUGGARE svensk, m/1810 för Gotlands nationalbeväring, läderbalja

Wiki:
History

The regiment was created in 1811 when it was decided to organize Nationalbeväringen på Gotland (later Gotlands nationalbeväring) after having experienced the Russian occupation of the island in 1808–1809. The unit was 6,781 men strong and consisted of three artillery companies and 43 companies of infantry and rangers. Gotlands nationalbeväring was reformed into two separate units, Gotlands infanteriregemente and Gotlands artillerikår, in 1887.

kisak · 2nd October 2008, 05:33 AM

Yup, that's "Gotlandshuggaren", the m/1810. As for the identification as cutlass, that's pretty much just the most direct translation of the Swedish designation (huggare). The pommel, as far as I know, is unique amongst Swedish models.

Expanding a bit on the "odd Swedish things" with possible oriental roots-theme, an officer named Hafström designed a few different models for the Swedish army and Navy in the 19th century (adopted models range from 1838 to 1885 that I know of) with a "half-leafblade" design which seems pretty unique as far as European 19th century blades go, or at least as far as I've seen. has anyone seen anything else like them in Europe around that time? Any ideas what might have inspired him?

The pictures shows the army's "Fascine knife" m/1848 (replaced the "cutlass" as the standard infantry sidearm IIRC), and a mid-century saber which I've seen attributed both to Stockholm's city militia, and Stockholm's police.

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 01:02 PM

Thanks Kisak,

BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book?

Best

M

kisak · 2nd October 2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Thanks Kisak,

BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book?

Best

M

No idea. I've never seen anyone label it as such anywhere, and to the best of my knowledge there isn't any other Swedish sword designated m/1800 either.

Ed · 2nd October 2008, 01:24 PM

A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

celtan · 2nd October 2008, 03:32 PM

The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control...

I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold..

M

2nd October 2008, 05:33 AM	#6
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Yup, that's "Gotlandshuggaren", the m/1810. As for the identification as cutlass, that's pretty much just the most direct translation of the Swedish designation (huggare). The pommel, as far as I know, is unique amongst Swedish models. Expanding a bit on the "odd Swedish things" with possible oriental roots-theme, an officer named Hafström designed a few different models for the Swedish army and Navy in the 19th century (adopted models range from 1838 to 1885 that I know of) with a "half-leafblade" design which seems pretty unique as far as European 19th century blades go, or at least as far as I've seen. has anyone seen anything else like them in Europe around that time? Any ideas what might have inspired him? The pictures shows the army's "Fascine knife" m/1848 (replaced the "cutlass" as the standard infantry sidearm IIRC), and a mid-century saber which I've seen attributed both to Stockholm's city militia, and Stockholm's police. Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

1st October 2008, 01:01 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Jim, I agree it does look like a pioneer sword, specially the mid 19th C. ones from Austria. Yep. it's fully IDed a a Naval Sword (not a cutlass, though) in p.267 of H. Wither's book "World Swords 1400-1945", on the chapter about "Naval Swords". Indeed, I saw recently an EB auction of one, IDing. same a a swedish infantry sidearm, from the russian-swedish wars in Finland. And yet I believe the seller didn't know squat about this blade. He actually let it go for 15% of its appraised book value! But then, isn't that the kind of a deal we ourselves dream about? The buyer was indeed a very lucky bloke! : ) M

1st October 2008, 07:35 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Celtan, Thank you for noting the source for the identification. I thought I had some reference here in the bookmobile on Swedish arms, but apparantly those books did not 'make the flight'. I do have the handy Wagner 'pocket reference' though! I wasn't aware of Mr. Withers book on world swords, but apparantly he does present good comprehensive reference. I know that he is at present writing a book on Scottish weapons, which I'm looking forward to. I think the term cutlass is likely misleading in the 19th century, as these sidearms were probably more utility weapons than for combat. This is of course why the heavy shellguards gave way to the open and functional grip, and the quillon terminals are simply vestigial decoration. These were probably used much in the way of the Dutch infantry swords I mentioned, or the 'falchions' used by Austrian sappers in about the mid 19th century. I think the only combat potential for these would have been of course on land, in operations much as Marines, but just a thought without more research. You're very right on the pleasant experience of finding a 'sleeper' ! This is truly the key benefit of expanding ones knowledge on these weapons, so that you will have the upper hand in those 'Kodak moments' ! I still treasure those of my own experience from years ago, and the exhaustion of trying to keep my composure in not giving myself away in completing the deal....and the explosion of jubilation and relief when it was done!!! On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature. All best regards, and thanks again for posting this! Jim

1st October 2008, 08:34 PM	#3
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	the swedes had contact with the ottomans during the 17th-18th centuries as evidenced by this article http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...connection.htm

2nd October 2008, 04:37 AM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	HUGGARE svensk, m/1810 för Gotlands nationalbeväring, läderbalja Wiki: History The regiment was created in 1811 when it was decided to organize Nationalbeväringen på Gotland (later Gotlands nationalbeväring) after having experienced the Russian occupation of the island in 1808–1809. The unit was 6,781 men strong and consisted of three artillery companies and 43 companies of infantry and rangers. Gotlands nationalbeväring was reformed into two separate units, Gotlands infanteriregemente and Gotlands artillerikår, in 1887.

2nd October 2008, 01:02 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thanks Kisak, BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book? Best M

2nd October 2008, 01:24 PM	#9
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 256	A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

2nd October 2008, 03:32 PM	#10
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control... I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold.. M