Sword from Lombok -- comments please

tom hyle · 8th April 2005, 05:04 AM

A couple things have slid by without challenge that I don't know are true, so I'm gonna try to catch up with them. I don't remember who said them, and it doesn't much matter, anyway. K(e)ris panjang, AFAIK "long kris", has been fairly extensively questioned as a purely ceremonial/execution weapon; I've seen and heard the contention that it was a combat weapon, and that it was a response to European thrusting swords. I don't really know the truth of this, but if it's been settled in a definite way, I haven't heard about that. Second, K(e)ris in general, in its true fighting form, is an effective slashing weapon. In the first place, the tangs are not as weak as many seem to expect from their size (and some of them are actually pretty robust); they don't just go around snapping at the drop of a hat; many, I say many, old "Western" butchering knives, used for slashing as their routine purpose, have very similar tangs; indeed, about identical. Also, some k(e)ris have oval-section tangs, though I increasingly suspect this is one of those things I didn't realize the unusualness of when I've seen it before. But mainly, I think there is a misunderstanding concerning the term "slash". First, a slash is not synonymous to a hack or chop. The aspect of this I will address at the moment is that a hack or chop is an action that distributes its force across the blade, while a slash, however, distributes its force largely along the blade, and along the tang as well, and a proper slash does not unduly stress a tang. K(e)ris is a competent cut-and-thrust weapon, and also, though I don't know the extent of its use thus within its native culture, quite capable of competent and effective parries (which also distribute their force along the tang). The main concern in slashing with a modernly mounted k(e)ris is neither the blade (if it's a fighting one, and not unduly over-washed) nor the tang, but the joining to the handle, or the lack thereof; the danger is that the blade would simply pull out of the hilt.

nechesh · 8th April 2005, 08:00 PM

Tom makes a good point about the joining of the hilt and blade being perhaps a bigger problem than the tang when fighting with a keris. I have heard that in some places pitch was used for a more secure hold on the blade when a keris was to possiblly be used in fighting. I have not been able to comfirm this though. I did once receive a Bali keris in this condition, though it is impossible to know exactly when and by whom this attachment was made. Tom is also correct that there is a big difference between slashing and chopping. However, given the traditional manner of grasping the weapon, with thumb and forefinger actually holding the blade at the pecetan, i'm not sure if slashing in the usual manner is very practical, though this would not, i suppose, count out making short slashes with the blade. This grasp seems really to be most ideal for a stabbing action and it has been my understanding that the angle at which the blade sits is intended specifically for this stabbing action in order to more likely guide the blade towards the center of the body and the vital organs. I would think parrying might be dangerous with ones fingers on the blade, but maybe not.

BluErf · 9th April 2005, 12:05 AM

Technically, the keris panjang does not have a picetan. At least most don't; they have that small circular cavity cut into the gandik area.

Furthermore, the form of the keris panjang blade does not aid slashing. It is long but narrow, and is seldom very sharp along the edges; a decently broad and sharp blade would have facilitated slashing. Also, while there are robust panjangs, there are also a substantial number of flimsy bladed ones, some barely longer than 18 inches.

The thing that really makes me dismiss the rapier-vs-panjang idea is the fact that the only time you see a panjang is during a ceremony involving some sultan or raja, such as coronation ceremonies. You don't see it being carried around by during normal every day life.

And of course, there is no record of a fight involving a keris panjang. Only of a keris panjang being used to execute high ranking criminals.

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8th April 2005, 05:04 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	A couple things have slid by without challenge that I don't know are true, so I'm gonna try to catch up with them. I don't remember who said them, and it doesn't much matter, anyway. K(e)ris panjang, AFAIK "long kris", has been fairly extensively questioned as a purely ceremonial/execution weapon; I've seen and heard the contention that it was a combat weapon, and that it was a response to European thrusting swords. I don't really know the truth of this, but if it's been settled in a definite way, I haven't heard about that. Second, K(e)ris in general, in its true fighting form, is an effective slashing weapon. In the first place, the tangs are not as weak as many seem to expect from their size (and some of them are actually pretty robust); they don't just go around snapping at the drop of a hat; many, I say many, old "Western" butchering knives, used for slashing as their routine purpose, have very similar tangs; indeed, about identical. Also, some k(e)ris have oval-section tangs, though I increasingly suspect this is one of those things I didn't realize the unusualness of when I've seen it before. But mainly, I think there is a misunderstanding concerning the term "slash". First, a slash is not synonymous to a hack or chop. The aspect of this I will address at the moment is that a hack or chop is an action that distributes its force across the blade, while a slash, however, distributes its force largely along the blade, and along the tang as well, and a proper slash does not unduly stress a tang. K(e)ris is a competent cut-and-thrust weapon, and also, though I don't know the extent of its use thus within its native culture, quite capable of competent and effective parries (which also distribute their force along the tang). The main concern in slashing with a modernly mounted k(e)ris is neither the blade (if it's a fighting one, and not unduly over-washed) nor the tang, but the joining to the handle, or the lack thereof; the danger is that the blade would simply pull out of the hilt.

8th April 2005, 08:00 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Tom makes a good point about the joining of the hilt and blade being perhaps a bigger problem than the tang when fighting with a keris. I have heard that in some places pitch was used for a more secure hold on the blade when a keris was to possiblly be used in fighting. I have not been able to comfirm this though. I did once receive a Bali keris in this condition, though it is impossible to know exactly when and by whom this attachment was made. Tom is also correct that there is a big difference between slashing and chopping. However, given the traditional manner of grasping the weapon, with thumb and forefinger actually holding the blade at the pecetan, i'm not sure if slashing in the usual manner is very practical, though this would not, i suppose, count out making short slashes with the blade. This grasp seems really to be most ideal for a stabbing action and it has been my understanding that the angle at which the blade sits is intended specifically for this stabbing action in order to more likely guide the blade towards the center of the body and the vital organs. I would think parrying might be dangerous with ones fingers on the blade, but maybe not.

9th April 2005, 12:05 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Technically, the keris panjang does not have a picetan. At least most don't; they have that small circular cavity cut into the gandik area. Furthermore, the form of the keris panjang blade does not aid slashing. It is long but narrow, and is seldom very sharp along the edges; a decently broad and sharp blade would have facilitated slashing. Also, while there are robust panjangs, there are also a substantial number of flimsy bladed ones, some barely longer than 18 inches. The thing that really makes me dismiss the rapier-vs-panjang idea is the fact that the only time you see a panjang is during a ceremony involving some sultan or raja, such as coronation ceremonies. You don't see it being carried around by during normal every day life. And of course, there is no record of a fight involving a keris panjang. Only of a keris panjang being used to execute high ranking criminals.