African ethno sabre for coments

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2008, 05:53 PM

This really is an outstanding discussion guys!! Its great to see everyone bringing in such great suggestions and offering supporting evidence to be considered.
Gav, thats an excellent observation about the jackal, and I must admit that I thought of it when I first saw the sword, thinking of the jackal headed god in Egypt. I first thought that geographically unlikely, completely overlooking the ancient ancestry of the Dogon. Well done!

Chevalier, good to see you come in on this, and your support on the hornbill plausibility well placed concurring with Tim's notes.

Fearn, excellent observation, this image is definitely multifaceted as its identity seems to vary in accordance to angle of view. Absolutely fascinating information as well on the psychpomp, and the hornbill inclusion in the afterlife concept, which seems to correspond with the jackal god with similar purpose if I understand correctly. Thank you for the link.

David, excellent continuing support for the cobra plausibility !

Fernando, it does seem that Ashoka Arts has very well described the piece in an objective sense, and as you say, until stronger proof to the contrary is discovered, the Dogon attribution must stand. I think that it is fascinating to see everyone working together reaching further forensically into the possibilities, of which many seem to support the Dogon identification.

Gentlemen, if I may say so, this in my opinion is truly what the study of weapons is all about! It is great to keep learning more as we study each one, and ideas and shared information strengthen collectively the knowledge of us all. Whether decisively identified or not, this sword has served us well!!

Thank you guys

fearn · 17th August 2008, 06:41 PM

Glad you're enjoying this, Jim. I am too.

Here's another thought. Perhaps, instead of a cobra's hood, the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill.

See the attached pic. I didn't realize abyssinian ground hornbills were quite that weird. Mascara has nothing on them...

F

fernando · 17th August 2008, 07:18 PM

Hi Fearn, it's a pleasure seeing you coming in

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

... the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill...

It's precisely with the (Abyssinian) ground hornbill species that the bird possibility becomes stronger, i guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

... the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

Eventually i was misguided by a web site which mentioned that this bird exists in the area east to Uganda.

http://montereybay.com/creagrus/ground_hornbills.html

Fernando

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2008, 07:22 PM

Good one Fearn!!! Maybelline city!!!! now that is weird.

fernando · 23rd August 2008, 02:03 PM

Looking for persons who may have something (further) to say about this, i have managed to establish contact with a researcher and author of some books on Dogon cosmologic symbols and mythology, Laird Scranton. This is his opinnion:

Although I cannot verify beyond question that the object is Dogon, my best guess based on Dogon symbolism is that it represents a stylized jackal - an animal that symbolizes the concept of disorder for the Dogon. A sword is an object that can wreak havoc and create chaos, so the jackal would be a very appropriate choice.

Still a "best guess" and not yet solid evidence. So the case is not yet filed.

Fernando

katana · 23rd August 2008, 04:45 PM

Hi Fernando,
I am still skeptical that it represents a Jackal. One of its characteristics is its pointed ears...surely a representation would have this feature

I have searched the many forms of Dogon masks but cannot find one that is described as a Jackel...or has rounded ears / large eye ridges/ 'cobra hood'.
There is an African wild dog that has the rounded ears but the Dogon area is not within it's 'range'. There is , of course, the possibility that the sword, although acquired from the Dogon was manufactured elsewhere.

If it is a Jackal ..couldn't the sword be descibed as a 'dog on sword'

If I discover any relevent information I will post it for you.

Kind Regards David

fernando · 23rd August 2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Fernando,
I am still skeptical that it represents a Jackal. One of its characteristics is its pointed ears...surely a representation would have this feature

I have searched the many forms of Dogon masks but cannot find one that is described as a Jackel...or has rounded ears / large eye ridges/ 'cobra hood'.
There is an African wild dog that has the rounded ears but the Dogon area is not within it's 'range'. There is , of course, the possibility that the sword, although acquired from the Dogon was manufactured elsewhere.

If it is a Jackal ..couldn't the sword be descibed as a 'dog on sword'

If I discover any relevent information I will post it for you.

Kind Regards David

Thank you for your colaboration David,
I know nothing yet can be taken as definite.
Also we can't tell what parts of whatever animal are more or less stylized (caricatured) in this work, unless we see something of the kind.
Yes, the wild dog (Lycaon pictus) used to exist also in the Mali region, but not any longer.
I think that, once establishing the solidity of the information about the sword having been bought from the Dogon, at a litle village in their Mali region, i see no reason for it not being their work. I am emailing Ashoka Arts, asking him what he would say about it.
Sometimes i look at this figure and feel that the position it has on the pommel, is relative to its actual anatomy ... meaning it would be an animal with an upright neck and a nape, therefore excluding reptiles.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 23rd August 2008, 09:23 PM

Excellent work Fernando! going right to the sources by contacting the author on Dogon symbology references. It always gets me charged up when research on a weapon reaches these levels, and though all any of us can do is offer plausible ideas, it is interesting to see if those with published knowledge might corroborate any of them.

I must confess my inclinations are still not specifically toward the jackal, but I do find the representation of the jackal and chaos in the Dogon culture most interesting. Given the presence of totemically represented subversive groups and secret societies in West Africa and Sahelian societies, even well into the Congo, that concept seems somewhat feasible. Perhaps certain established hierarchy of such a group within Dogon culture might have worn such weapons as these ceremonially.

Returning to earlier discussion and the radically stylized zoomorphic representations, I think it is important to again recall the temporal imaging of these decorative features. I think yet another example of such an image (besides that of the mysterious flyssa pommel) is that of the aghrab seen on many Arabian scabbards. This stylized feature is supposed to represent a scorpion, and along with other familiar motif, protect against evil eye. No matter how much I look at these 'aghrab' I cannot possibly visualize a scorpion!

I think that our best bet is to review known Dogon material culture and art as well as that of neighboring tribes and regions to see if any items might have corroborating decoation or motif.

17th August 2008, 06:41 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Glad you're enjoying this, Jim. I am too. Here's another thought. Perhaps, instead of a cobra's hood, the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill. See the attached pic. I didn't realize abyssinian ground hornbills were quite that weird. Mascara has nothing on them... F Attached Images

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17th August 2008, 05:53 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This really is an outstanding discussion guys!! Its great to see everyone bringing in such great suggestions and offering supporting evidence to be considered. Gav, thats an excellent observation about the jackal, and I must admit that I thought of it when I first saw the sword, thinking of the jackal headed god in Egypt. I first thought that geographically unlikely, completely overlooking the ancient ancestry of the Dogon. Well done! Chevalier, good to see you come in on this, and your support on the hornbill plausibility well placed concurring with Tim's notes. Fearn, excellent observation, this image is definitely multifaceted as its identity seems to vary in accordance to angle of view. Absolutely fascinating information as well on the psychpomp, and the hornbill inclusion in the afterlife concept, which seems to correspond with the jackal god with similar purpose if I understand correctly. Thank you for the link. David, excellent continuing support for the cobra plausibility ! Fernando, it does seem that Ashoka Arts has very well described the piece in an objective sense, and as you say, until stronger proof to the contrary is discovered, the Dogon attribution must stand. I think that it is fascinating to see everyone working together reaching further forensically into the possibilities, of which many seem to support the Dogon identification. Gentlemen, if I may say so, this in my opinion is truly what the study of weapons is all about! It is great to keep learning more as we study each one, and ideas and shared information strengthen collectively the knowledge of us all. Whether decisively identified or not, this sword has served us well!! Thank you guys

17th August 2008, 07:22 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Good one Fearn!!! Maybelline city!!!! now that is weird.

23rd August 2008, 02:03 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Looking for persons who may have something (further) to say about this, i have managed to establish contact with a researcher and author of some books on Dogon cosmologic symbols and mythology, Laird Scranton. This is his opinnion: Although I cannot verify beyond question that the object is Dogon, my best guess based on Dogon symbolism is that it represents a stylized jackal - an animal that symbolizes the concept of disorder for the Dogon. A sword is an object that can wreak havoc and create chaos, so the jackal would be a very appropriate choice. Still a "best guess" and not yet solid evidence. So the case is not yet filed. Fernando

23rd August 2008, 04:45 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando, I am still skeptical that it represents a Jackal. One of its characteristics is its pointed ears...surely a representation would have this feature I have searched the many forms of Dogon masks but cannot find one that is described as a Jackel...or has rounded ears / large eye ridges/ 'cobra hood'. There is an African wild dog that has the rounded ears but the Dogon area is not within it's 'range'. There is , of course, the possibility that the sword, although acquired from the Dogon was manufactured elsewhere. If it is a Jackal ..couldn't the sword be descibed as a 'dog on sword' If I discover any relevent information I will post it for you. Kind Regards David

23rd August 2008, 09:23 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Excellent work Fernando! going right to the sources by contacting the author on Dogon symbology references. It always gets me charged up when research on a weapon reaches these levels, and though all any of us can do is offer plausible ideas, it is interesting to see if those with published knowledge might corroborate any of them. I must confess my inclinations are still not specifically toward the jackal, but I do find the representation of the jackal and chaos in the Dogon culture most interesting. Given the presence of totemically represented subversive groups and secret societies in West Africa and Sahelian societies, even well into the Congo, that concept seems somewhat feasible. Perhaps certain established hierarchy of such a group within Dogon culture might have worn such weapons as these ceremonially. Returning to earlier discussion and the radically stylized zoomorphic representations, I think it is important to again recall the temporal imaging of these decorative features. I think yet another example of such an image (besides that of the mysterious flyssa pommel) is that of the aghrab seen on many Arabian scabbards. This stylized feature is supposed to represent a scorpion, and along with other familiar motif, protect against evil eye. No matter how much I look at these 'aghrab' I cannot possibly visualize a scorpion! I think that our best bet is to review known Dogon material culture and art as well as that of neighboring tribes and regions to see if any items might have corroborating decoation or motif.