African ethno sabre for coments

[fernando]

Thank you all Getlemen, for this on-going flow of postings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Although there are compelling suggestions to what creature this pommel might be, without a provenanced example to corroborate where exactly this sword might be from, we cannot be certain ...

Your'e quite right, Jim; but let me quote the whole info provided by Ashoka Arts, in its commercial site, about this piece's origin:

19th century Dogon sword from village of Bamba Mali, it was purchased from Samba Kamissoko in 1998. Clearly influenced by the shape of European military swords of the period, this piece has a cast bronze hilt in the stylised form of an animal with knucleguard and downturned quillon. Complete with its leather scabbard. 32 inches approximately. 19th century or earlier, Mali/Sahel.

My i then admit that, untill contrary evidence, this is a Dogon work; at least and so far, i haven't yet registered vivid opposition to that, from the posting members ... if i'm not mistaken.
... and, as Jim reminds, an (unusual) piece of regalia; possibly having belonged to a Dogon big shot ... if not made to trade with the white man ?!

In the meantime i browsed the Net on the Dogon; they are said to descend from the Egiptions, and are a tribe that exists since 3000 BC ... whether a fact or a legend.

I have also had an opinnion that the misterious animal in the pommel could be a crocodile. This is not at all unplausible, both because its shape is not so distant frrom a croc skull, and also due to these reptiles being sacred to Dogons.
I have read that,when they find a dead crocodile, they take it and bury it like a human in their graveyards up in the caves in the cliffs.

So the riddle continues unsolved ... or not ?

Fernando

Attached a Dogon crocodile mask

.

[chevalier]

the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by chevalier

the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

All doors are still open.
If we look at their mask typology, even mixes maybe seen; i have just seen a mask half monkey half hornbill.
But i also noticed that the ground hornbill, such one with the eye wattles, lives more to the east of Africa.
It could be a coincidence, but the majority of hornbills i see carved in Malian masks, are more the type represented with their bills strongly down curved ... certainly other variants.
Fernando

[fearn]

Hi All,

Interesting piece. Thought I'd throw a couple of observations in. First off, the hilt seems to appear to be a different critter depending on which way you look at it, so perhaps the relevant question is, which way was it intended to be observed? I'm guessing from the side, which would suggest it's not supposed to be a cobra.

Second observation: it's possible to get A bird list for Mali. There are three confirmed hornbill species for Mali, of which the Abysinnian Ground Hornbill appears to be the only resident. The picture from Wikipedia is attached. To me there is a resemblance between bird and hilt, but only from the side.

While I'm not going to argue that the hilt is solidly representational, I personally think it's more hornbillish than not. If you believe this website to the Dogon, the hornbill is a psychpomp (escort for the souls of the dead) that also stands for the continuance of human life. There's also artwork for snakes (such as the god Lebe), hyenas, and lizards, none of which are terribly representational. Still, to me it looks like a bird.

My 0.0000002 cents,

F

[Jim McDougall]

This really is an outstanding discussion guys!! Its great to see everyone bringing in such great suggestions and offering supporting evidence to be considered.
Gav, thats an excellent observation about the jackal, and I must admit that I thought of it when I first saw the sword, thinking of the jackal headed god in Egypt. I first thought that geographically unlikely, completely overlooking the ancient ancestry of the Dogon. Well done!

Chevalier, good to see you come in on this, and your support on the hornbill plausibility well placed concurring with Tim's notes.

Fearn, excellent observation, this image is definitely multifaceted as its identity seems to vary in accordance to angle of view. Absolutely fascinating information as well on the psychpomp, and the hornbill inclusion in the afterlife concept, which seems to correspond with the jackal god with similar purpose if I understand correctly. Thank you for the link.

David, excellent continuing support for the cobra plausibility !

Fernando, it does seem that Ashoka Arts has very well described the piece in an objective sense, and as you say, until stronger proof to the contrary is discovered, the Dogon attribution must stand. I think that it is fascinating to see everyone working together reaching further forensically into the possibilities, of which many seem to support the Dogon identification.

Gentlemen, if I may say so, this in my opinion is truly what the study of weapons is all about! It is great to keep learning more as we study each one, and ideas and shared information strengthen collectively the knowledge of us all. Whether decisively identified or not, this sword has served us well!!

Thank you guys

[fearn]

Glad you're enjoying this, Jim. I am too.

Here's another thought. Perhaps, instead of a cobra's hood, the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill.

See the attached pic. I didn't realize abyssinian ground hornbills were quite that weird. Mascara has nothing on them...

F

[fernando]

Hi Fearn, it's a pleasure seeing you coming in

Originally Posted by fearn

... the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill...

It's precisely with the (Abyssinian) ground hornbill species that the bird possibility becomes stronger, i guess.

Originally Posted by chevalier

... the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

Eventually i was misguided by a web site which mentioned that this bird exists in the area east to Uganda.

http://montereybay.com/creagrus/ground_hornbills.html

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Good one Fearn!!! Maybelline city!!!! now that is weird.

[fernando]

Looking for persons who may have something (further) to say about this, i have managed to establish contact with a researcher and author of some books on Dogon cosmologic symbols and mythology, Laird Scranton. This is his opinnion:

Although I cannot verify beyond question that the object is Dogon, my best guess based on Dogon symbolism is that it represents a stylized jackal - an animal that symbolizes the concept of disorder for the Dogon. A sword is an object that can wreak havoc and create chaos, so the jackal would be a very appropriate choice.

Still a "best guess" and not yet solid evidence. So the case is not yet filed.

Fernando